Ungrateful wretches, AKA adult children

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In my day, there was only one kind of DD214.

But this..."the issue was about what the agency needed and why, and that people who are homeless might not be able to access them easily - so the issues were, (1) why did they add that requirement so late in the process, (2) why did they not accept two other proofs of his status and (3) why was the requirement not seen ANYWHERE in the regs that control this program in the first place? In other words, this requirement appears to have been arbitrary, capricious and interposed for the purpose of delay." Nope.

Anyone with an IQ over room temperature who has EVER served in any branch of the US military knows that to get any benefits of any kind from anything even remotely connected to military service, you MUST have "discharge papers." World War II guys spoke of "mustering out" papers. My MIL had discharge papers, not a DD214. That form was introduced in 1950.

But wIthout that piece of paper, you didn't serve. And ALL veterans know that.

But - he had the short form DD214 (I believe that's the Member 4 form), and had presented it from the very beginning, along with some other official document demonstrating that his discharge was honorable. What he didn't have readily accessible was the OPTIONAL long form, which is what they program manager decided - 6-8 weeks into the process - that he needed to process the application for services. SIL got GI bill benefits for 4 years without showing the OPTIONAL long form.

I still think that - taken in context - the very late and request for a form that is only issued OPTIONALLY, which is not listed in the enabling underlying Federal Regulations nor in the extensive paperwork describing what is needed to establish eligibility, which the homeless vet might have trouble putting their hands on, which can only be acquired quickly by the applicant (many of whom are in dire straits and without transportation) appearing in person 40+ miles away, to confirm a fact proven by other official paperwork and which the agency could verify by making a call, or searching a database or sending an email or fax, to ME smacks of being deliberate obstacle interposed for delay as punishment for SIL refusing to do something shady and unethical that the agency suggested. In other words, I still think there is something shady and corrupt going on.

Oh, and SIL sent me a copy of his letter that is to be given to the landlord. It was ****** up - it all related to getting housing in Alameda County, not Santa Clara County, so all the references and tables were for a different county, and do him no good - which he would have found out when he tried to convince a landlord to accept the terms of this program - the landlord has to agree to:

  • Wait for a deposit and first and last months rent coming from a government agency - at some point in the future
  • Submit to having his property inspected by the government for defects in habitability
  • Agree to not change the lease terms or to charge the vet and his family more than others in the building
  • And a couple of other things which would have me (as the landlord) telling SIL to go take a flying leap at the moon.
Like I said, I really beginning to think this whole program stinks like a dead fish, is bogus, and is designed to be a jobs program for the people RUNNING it (those TWO agencies), and not the people it is supposed to help.
 
the kid is 2+ years old and they need to take care of her, and themselves.

You know, he could reenlist, she could enlist. They are not without options. They are just without options that involve no effort on their part.
Well, he will have his BSEE in May - he should be able to get a job then.
 
Well then if whatever DD214 he has was good enough, it should STILL BE good enough.


Sounds like the old Section Eight housing.

But really, there are more needy people...people less able to get by...people willing to take the sketchiest of housing arrangements...in the iffiest areas...because they really are without other options. And the landlords are a friend of a friend...or someone who will require a little "palm greasing" in addition to the govt money...or, maybe, they will encounter the occasional do-gooder.

He HAS the option of working somewhere and delaying school for a semester. She can go to work, even part time. One can work days, the other a different shift. They are employable. There are so many vets who don't have those advantages.

So it will STILL, if it's like the old Section Eight Housing, be their responsibility to find that housing and it won't be easy and they may need to know what to do if they do not find that housing...a likely scenario.
 
No, he didn't leave them at our house - we wouldn't let them do that.

Look at this letter - aside from it referring to THE WRONG COUNTY, if you were a landlord and they showed this letter to you, in this competitive market, what would you do with it? Besides throwing it back in their faces?

Supportive Services for Veteran Familes (SSVF)

One of our clients may be applying for a rental unit at your property. Abode Services SSVF program is a temporary rental assistance program provided by Abode Services to help families and individuals gain permanent, long-term housing. Our clients already have income, our organization is here to help with the deposit and first month’s rent.

OWNER ADVANTAGES

Guaranteed Rent Payments
We guarantee the deposit and first month rent will be delivered via business check. Our clients have the resources to pay the rent in full each month, if any issue arrives our organization is here to assist both our clients and their landlords. Um, aside from the typo [arrives? arises!], WHEN is that check going to show up? Do you think the landlord is going to hold the apartment until then, when the next tenant shows up with cash in hand??

Free Advertising
We'll advertise your units free of charge to veterans in our programs who are looking for a place to live. WOOHOO

Free Inspections
In addition to the inspections you already conduct at your rental property, we'll send a trained inspector out to the unit every year who will conduct a Housing Quality Standards inspection in which they will check for safety hazards and notify you of any needed repairs. OH HELL TO THE ******* NO!!

HOW THE PROGRAM WORKS

Program Participants are veterans who have served our country in active duty. They have had difficulty locating long term housing on their own and are enrolled in our program for assistance in doing so. All Abode Services needs to proceed is the owner’s current copy of their W-9 and a copy of the signed lease. With these documents we can process the check for the security deposit and first month’s rent. Accepting a third party check might make some owner’s hesitant, but in fact it actually works to their advantage. Rather than renting to any other individual on the open market, owner’s can get a tenant who has the backing of a large non-profit that has a presence throughout Alameda County. Right - now the LANDLORD'S business gets inspected?? **** NO!!

HOW TO JOIN

Abode Services simply needs a copy of a current W-9, a copy of the lease, and a unit that will pass a Housing Quality Standards inspection.

Unit Inspection
We look for possible hazards like smoke alarms without a battery or an outlet without a cover plate. The inspection may alert you to problems you might not know about so that you may make the necessary repairs. If everything checks out, the home passes and is ready for occupancy.

Rent & Security Deposit
You get the same rental rate you charge others for similar units in your complex, as long as it's the going rate in the neighborhood and falls within our guidelines for Alameda County Fair Market Rents. You can also charge the same security deposit and late fees that you would charge other tenants. SO IF THE RENT THE LANDLORD IS ASKING IS OUTSIDE THEIR ARBITRARY "GUIDELINES" THEN THE LANDLORD HAS TO LOWER THE RENT - HELL TO THE ******* NO!!!

Leasing Practices
Enforce the rules of your lease just as you would with an open market tenant as long as your actions are consistent with your normal operating procedures.

Rent Increases
After the initial lease term, you are free to raise your tenant's rent as long as it is not more than what you would charge other tenants and is comparable to other similar unit rents in the neighborhood and does not exceed Alameda County Fair Market Rents RIGHT, THE LANDLORD IS GOING TO ACCEPT THESE TERMS IN THIS HIGHLY COMPETITIVE MARKET?? ******* HELL NO!

Case Management/Service Coordination

Each veteran is followed by a case manager to ensure that they are following through on their goals. The family is referred to services and given all resources available to help assist them to achieve long term housing. Case managers will help clients with a budget plan and to follow up on any other issues that might arise. If there is a tenant/landlord issue contact the Housing Specialist to see if there can be some assistance and problem solving on behalf of both parties. Seriously? If you're the landlord, having problems with a vet, you'd take the time to bother doing this? Or go straight to eviction?

Please keep in mind that it is only with community partners like yourself that make it possible for us to impact the lives of our clients in such a positive way. …Because everyone should have a home.

Thank you for your consideration.

XXXXX

Housing Specialist

Abode Services

Cell: (510) 320-XXXX
Work: (510) 657-XXXX

XXXXX@abodeservices.org

For more information, please go to www.abodeservices.org
I'm getting more and more convinced this whole program is a scamarama. They don't give money out to the vets, first, by not making it possible for most vets to comply with their ridiculously onerous requirements, and second because the vets can't USE money under these onerous restrictions, because no landlord in their right mind would accept them.
 
No, he didn't leave them at our house - we wouldn't let them do that.

Look at this letter - aside from it referring to THE WRONG COUNTY, if you were a landlord and they showed this letter to you, in this competitive market, what would you do with it? Besides throwing it back in their faces?

Supportive Services for Veteran Familes (SSVF)

One of our clients may be applying for a rental unit at your property. Abode Services SSVF program is a temporary rental assistance program provided by Abode Services to help families and individuals gain permanent, long-term housing. Our clients already have income, our organization is here to help with the deposit and first month’s rent.

OWNER ADVANTAGES

Guaranteed Rent Payments
We guarantee the deposit and first month rent will be delivered via business check. Our clients have the resources to pay the rent in full each month, if any issue arrives our organization is here to assist both our clients and their landlords. Um, aside from the typo [arrives? arises!], WHEN is that check going to show up? Do you think the landlord is going to hold the apartment until then, when the next tenant shows up with cash in hand??

Free Advertising
We'll advertise your units free of charge to veterans in our programs who are looking for a place to live. WOOHOO

Free Inspections
In addition to the inspections you already conduct at your rental property, we'll send a trained inspector out to the unit every year who will conduct a Housing Quality Standards inspection in which they will check for safety hazards and notify you of any needed repairs. OH HELL TO THE ******* NO!!

HOW THE PROGRAM WORKS

Program Participants are veterans who have served our country in active duty. They have had difficulty locating long term housing on their own and are enrolled in our program for assistance in doing so. All Abode Services needs to proceed is the owner’s current copy of their W-9 and a copy of the signed lease. With these documents we can process the check for the security deposit and first month’s rent. Accepting a third party check might make some owner’s hesitant, but in fact it actually works to their advantage. Rather than renting to any other individual on the open market, owner’s can get a tenant who has the backing of a large non-profit that has a presence throughout Alameda County. Right - now the LANDLORD'S business gets inspected?? **** NO!!

HOW TO JOIN

Abode Services simply needs a copy of a current W-9, a copy of the lease, and a unit that will pass a Housing Quality Standards inspection.

Unit Inspection
We look for possible hazards like smoke alarms without a battery or an outlet without a cover plate. The inspection may alert you to problems you might not know about so that you may make the necessary repairs. If everything checks out, the home passes and is ready for occupancy.

Rent & Security Deposit
You get the same rental rate you charge others for similar units in your complex, as long as it's the going rate in the neighborhood and falls within our guidelines for Alameda County Fair Market Rents. You can also charge the same security deposit and late fees that you would charge other tenants. SO IF THE RENT THE LANDLORD IS ASKING IS OUTSIDE THEIR ARBITRARY "GUIDELINES" THEN THE LANDLORD HAS TO LOWER THE RENT - HELL TO THE ******* NO!!!

Leasing Practices
Enforce the rules of your lease just as you would with an open market tenant as long as your actions are consistent with your normal operating procedures.

Rent Increases
After the initial lease term, you are free to raise your tenant's rent as long as it is not more than what you would charge other tenants and is comparable to other similar unit rents in the neighborhood and does not exceed Alameda County Fair Market Rents RIGHT, THE LANDLORD IS GOING TO ACCEPT THESE TERMS IN THIS HIGHLY COMPETITIVE MARKET?? ******* HELL NO!

Case Management/Service Coordination

Each veteran is followed by a case manager to ensure that they are following through on their goals. The family is referred to services and given all resources available to help assist them to achieve long term housing. Case managers will help clients with a budget plan and to follow up on any other issues that might arise. If there is a tenant/landlord issue contact the Housing Specialist to see if there can be some assistance and problem solving on behalf of both parties. Seriously? If you're the landlord, having problems with a vet, you'd take the time to bother doing this? Or go straight to eviction?

Please keep in mind that it is only with community partners like yourself that make it possible for us to impact the lives of our clients in such a positive way. …Because everyone should have a home.

Thank you for your consideration.

XXXXX

Housing Specialist

Abode Services

Cell: (510) 320-XXXX
Work: (510) 657-XXXX

XXXXX@abodeservices.org

For more information, please go to www.abodeservices.org
I'm getting more and more convinced this whole program is a scamarama. They don't give money out to the vets, first, by not making it possible for most vets to comply with their ridiculously onerous requirements, and second because the vets can't USE money under these onerous restrictions, because no landlord in their right mind would accept them.


I don't know that it is a scam..but it is typical government assisted housing. And if they qualify for this, they may also qualify for Section 8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_(housing)

rentals:

http://www.gosection8.com/Section-8-housing-in-San-Jose-Santa Clara-CA/
 
Also...There are thousands of people in Santa Clara County who have Section 8 housing...same rules.

I don't think anyone wants to have the money go to these vets...who have already proven they need help just putting a roof over their heads. In too many cases, that money would disappear. (A huge percentage of PTSD cases from these last ten years...and many really messed up young people...many--unlike your SIL--would drink the money or smoke it. They just can't be given money.)

If the housing market is all that tight, they may have to move out to the edges of the county...if it's any cheaper there. Or go to another county. Speaking as a (former) CA taxpayer, why should I subsidize their rent in a high rent district when all they have to do is move a bit away and commute? Even on a bus? But...it looks like LOTS of local landlords are going for the government assistance thing. HOWEVER, if I were the landlord...I'd rather take Section 8...long term, than some program that only helps get people get started.

At the risk of sounding like I walked three miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways...when Mr. Sue and I wanted to buy a house and could not "gather up" a down payment while paying L.A. rents, we built a kind of shack in my mom's garage and lived there for almost six months. Mom did the cooking and we paid a fixed percentage of the groceries and, after the first month, the increase in their utilities. (My mom insisted we pay our own way because she didn't want her step-kids freeloading.) I left for work an hour or so before Mr. Sue got home. Grandma babysat for that hour. Mr. Sue helped with the dishes. (I ate at work.) And he bathed the kid and put her to bed. (In the house.) Then he went out to our shack and read and watched tv until I got home. We had no toilet out there. Only running water was the hose. I had to tiptoe into the house and it's a good thing I didn't have my bladder problems at the time. Then we crashed and started over the next day.

It was pretty close to hell. But except for the babysitting, we got nothing for free and in four months we were making offers on houses and in six months we were homeowners.

I know I sound like a hard ass, but if they haven't already exhausted all of those kinds of options, why should I (generic taxpayer) "give" them something that was never "given" to me (generic taxpayer)? I looked at San Jose jobs...Boston Market needs drivers for a few hours a day at lunch time. It probably pays the equivalent of minimum wage...plus tips...but even that would be about $600 net by the end of the month. Petco needs a cashier. Bed Bath and Beyond needs stock and other help. Jamba Juice and Five Guys and lots of other places are hiring...and more will be for Christmas. Maybe P can get a lunchtime job and grandpa--when he is feeling better--can babysit.

Most of us worked as we went to college. Only one semester left? He might be eligible for additional student loans. And he can get a job stocking shelves at Toys R Us or somewhere for Christmas. (But, once he graduates, the payments start and I don't know how he will manage rent AND student loan payments while in an entry level position. And...his income may disqualify them for assistance. So they really need a Plan B.


Sincerely,
Snarly Old Bitch
 
Well then if whatever DD214 he has was good enough, it should STILL BE good enough.

Sounds like the old Section Eight housing.

But really, there are more needy people...people less able to get by...people willing to take the sketchiest of housing arrangements...in the iffiest areas...because they really are without other options. And the landlords are a friend of a friend...or someone who will require a little "palm greasing" in addition to the govt money...or, maybe, they will encounter the occasional do-gooder.
Oh, I agree - but I strongly suspect they are NOT giving out the funds they have, and are NOT prioritizing limited funds among the needy, needier and neediest - because the moment the congressman got involved, BOOM, they had the letter. Note: the only thing they are promising is less than $5K - ($1300 x 2) + deposit as a grant.

He HAS the option of working somewhere and delaying school for a semester. She can go to work, even part time. One can work days, the other a different shift. They are employable. There are so many vets who don't have those advantages.
Not reasonably - the cutbacks in the state college system have resulted in it being nearly impossible to finish an engineering degree in 4 years anyway, and the classes are in series and have to be taken in order and aren't offered every year, much less every semester.

So it will STILL, if it's like the old Section Eight Housing, be their responsibility to find that housing and it won't be easy and they may need to know what to do if they do not find that housing...a likely scenario.
Absolutely. They need to have at least a couple of fallbacks, neither of which is US.
 
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I don't disagree with any of what you're saying Spiky, and they need a fall back plan for this as well - in fact, as it turns out, after talking to SIL again, all that is being offered is essentially first and last months rent - less than $3000.

Section 8 housing has a waiting list far in excess of a year. It doesn't save people from homelessness in the meantime.

The issue that I am harping on, however, is that the program itself is being mismanaged and is possibly defrauding the vets. I’d like to know the percentage of the grants that actually goes to the vets. I said so to SIL, and his response:

The deeper I get into this program the more it feels wrong. I have never seen any other veterans in the office or any evidence that there have ever been. At first I thought maybe the difference is that the other veterans were living on the street and so the case workers went to them.

But how would somebody living on the street, unable to get to the office, be able to collect all this paperwork? How would they be able to get housing if they had no income and the program only provided one months rent?

Initially, he had been told that the program would pay the first few months of their rent, in addition to the deposit. But then the letter says:


Our clients already have income, our organization is here to help with the deposit and first month’s rent. ....
We guarantee the deposit and first month rent will be delivered via business check. Our clients have the resources to pay the rent in full each month ...

They have student loans - is that "income"? They don't pay income tax on it. Another prevarication.

This program - whether you think they are entitled to it or not - was touted to them as something it appears it is not. They have wasted two months trying to get help from them for less than $3000 and not only no other help (like the promise that was made that the landlord would be told that the agency would essentially co-sign the lease), but this paltry sum imposes burdensome requirements on the landlord for NO valuable consideration whatsoever. It appears SIL and SD have been strung along to make it LOOK like Abode Services and Operation Dignity are earning the money they are being paid - which seems to be to prevent vets from getting a good deal, if not most, of the money in that grant.
 
I don't disagree with any of what you're saying Spiky, and they need a fall back plan for this as well - in fact, as it turns out, after talking to SIL again, all that is being offered is essentially first and last months rent - less than $3000.

Section 8 housing has a waiting list far in excess of a year. It doesn't save people from homelessness in the meantime.

The issue that I am harping on, however, is that the program itself is being mismanaged and is possibly defrauding the vets. I’d like to know the percentage of the grants that actually goes to the vets. I said so to SIL, and his response:

The deeper I get into this program the more it feels wrong. I have never seen any other veterans in the office or any evidence that there have ever been. At first I thought maybe the difference is that the other veterans were living on the street and so the case workers went to them.

But how would somebody living on the street, unable to get to the office, be able to collect all this paperwork? How would they be able to get housing if they had no income and the program only provided one months rent?

Initially, he had been told that the program would pay the first few months of their rent, in addition to the deposit. But then the letter says:


Our clients already have income, our organization is here to help with the deposit and first month’s rent. ....
We guarantee the deposit and first month rent will be delivered via business check. Our clients have the resources to pay the rent in full each month ...

They have student loans - is that "income"? They don't pay income tax on it. Another prevarication.

This program - whether you think they are entitled to it or not - was touted to them as something it appears it is not. They have wasted two months trying to get help from them for less than $3000 and not only no other help (like the promise that was made that the landlord would be told that the agency would essentially co-sign the lease), but this paltry sum imposes burdensome requirements on the landlord for NO valuable consideration whatsoever. It appears SIL and SD have been strung along to make it LOOK like Abode Services and Operation Dignity are earning the money they are being paid - which seems to be to prevent vets from getting a good deal, if not most, of the money in that grant.


I'm not saying they are not entitled to it. Sounds like they ARE. But "it" seems to be, as you said, a paltry sum for a very short period of time. And as a landlord, I'd opt for Section 8 tenants if I had to choose.

The eligibility piece that gets my attention is that there are probably needier vets out there (and the do-gooder landlords will feel good about helping them) and they may show up at the front of the line looking for long term housing and be in possession of a monthly VA disability check that will keep coming in every month as opposed to whatever SIL gets. Your kids have a situation that is in flux. I am imagining that they will get their approval and look, for weeks or months, for a willing landlord and, find a place and if all goes well they'll get a paycheck and lose his eligibility posthaste.

So turning the tables on you...who would YOU rent to? Someone who is going to make you jump through hoops for a couple of months rent or someone who will stick around so you don't have to repeat this dance in three months. Maybe a Section 8 landlord has a vacancy and would play.? But really...I think the cost-benefit analysis would point to spending the time and effort just working a part time job or two.

I put in that link to the Section 8 rentals because maybe they can find a landlord there...someone who is used to the bs.
 
Exactly. They had been led to believe this would be a few months rent, with some sort of guaranty to the landlord in case they fell behind. More like Section 8. Instead, it is just the downpayment (which a "normal" renter would just hand to the landlord when they signed the rental agreement) which they will get "soon," PLUS the onerous rules, inspections and disclosures of income statements. I'd sent the little family packing if I were the landlord - give me a 20 something single Facebook stock option holder who doesn't blink an eye at a quarterly rent increase.

And someone who deals with Section 8 would think even moreso - this SUCKS.
 
At the risk of (further) pissing you off...and remember, I live in a state with no income tax, so I probably help almost no one...

I strongly suspect that the majority of taxpayers think that if he needs an extra year to finish school...well, whoop-di-*******-do. Many of us took more than four years to earn a Bachelors degree.

So he and his bride each work two minimum wage jobs, share child care--maybe with help from grandparents--pay their own rent, and a year from now they both may be a little more mature and at the very least they will be able to have SOME self esteem based on self-sufficiency.

Mini Sue is 39 years old and when she started college in 1993, we were told that one of the perqs of sending her to private school was that she COULD earn a degree in four years. To me, that means that for at least 20 years, a good percentage of students in public schools have had to deal with the five- or six-year four-year degree problem.

And prior to that, she started college in 1977, when she was two. I was going to community college and taking a Saturday class, but some Saturdays, Mr. Sue had to work. I still have the notebooks...I sat in class and took notes and she sat next to me, in the back of the room, and took HER notes. Not every Saturday, but occasionally.

But these young people seem to already be getting at least some free food, free housing, free medical and they want MORE! WHY? Because they are too spoiled to get up off their ***** AND because they have convinced family members...on several sides of their families...that they both need and deserve help.

They may go to the top of a list by being a squeaky wheel, but these programs are designed for the truly needy, not just for lazy young adults who don't WANT to get jobs. And that's a shame if their receiving help means that some shaky PTSD victim living under bridges or in shelters has to wait longer.

I think our (your-my) differences include that piece that if they have no other plans, YOU are their fallback plan. As much as you don't want to have them there, you are constitutionally incapable of letting them flounder. So you have a vested interest in their acquiring other assistance. (And you are discovering how maddening these "help"plans really are.) But if they were the kids of your crappy neighbors--the ones you like to irritate--how much of your probably giant tax bill would you want going to help them, when they were perfectly capable of helping themselves?
 
Oh trust me, I am substantially in agreement with you, as I've made very clear. They are both entitled brats, on several levels.

My comments about the VA grant, however, are MOSTLY related to my concerns about this government-paid program and how it is being managed and whether there is fraud.

Those concerns include the following points:
  • Whether you or I or anyone else thinks they should be "entitled" to this help, the program exists, and they qualify, under the terms of the grant, to housing assistance - it is not a close call at all, and there is NO indication that the availability of funds to serve the vets who have applied is the issue
  • They have been led down the garden path by the administrators of the government-funded program to expect that were going to get substantial help, and that the program was designed to act quickly
  • This program isn't just for anyone, but a special program for VETERANS who served (including those who were deployed), and who are facing a bad time in this economy after giving years of service to the country (blah blah - but that's what it was SUPPOSED to be for) - and they qualify under the grant for special consideration
  • They have spent over two months now trying to get into the program, expecting it (because they were misled to expect it) to be substantial assistance which would be coming through quickly, because they clearly qualify - and now it appears they have been on what appears to be essentially a snipe hunt - not only is that frustrating and detrimental to them getting on their feet (yes, because they were counting on it and not having a plan B) - they have detrimentally relied on what are essentially LIES from an organization that appears to be defrauding the government and the veterans the organization is supposed to be serving.
  • There is nothing wrong with - and in fact, it is paying it forward - getting the congressman involved in investigating why this program is being managed this way - if it is just the usual government/contractor inefficiencies, that is one thing, but if there is fraud going on, stealing from the government and the vets, these people need to be prosecuted.
I'm not questioning the validity of the program, or whether people in their circumstances should be included in the umbrella of the terms of the grant for housing assistance -
And I'm sure many if not most people (myself included) take advantage of taxpayer-based funding that may or may not be justifiable if scrutinized carefully, starting with tax breaks to all homeowners, regardless of income, in the form of mortgage interest deductions; tuition help for people who actually have resources or who could be attending public vs. private schools; etc. etc.

My primary issue at this point is that THIS program appears to be a fraudulent ripoff that should be exposed if it is, as well as noting the similarity to the ripoff of morbidly obese patients by insurance companies who fraudulently deny valid requests for precertification, keeping premiums that were paid to cover ALL medically necessary treatments by making the path too frustrating to negotiate, and which OTHER insured patients in the plan would be happy to see them NOT get, because of moral judgments that the morbidly obese put themselves INTO this predicament, so they shouldn't be able to access "the easy way out" - again, only the squeaky wheels get what they are entitled to.

Yes, I have a vested interest in seeing that they get moved into an apartment, so that there is no danger of being put into the position of "having" to house them again, and yes, they shouldn't have gotten themselves into this predicament in the first place, and yes, there are other ways available to them that they have not availed themselves of to deal with it - but the apparent improprieties of what these agencies are doing are not lessened by whether these factors impact their "entitlement" to the funds that have been made available to people in their circumstances, per the terms of the grant.

And of course I could ALSO rant about SIL's father's piece of this as well. He was given a HUGE (in the neighborhood of at least $500K, maybe more, in addition to a significant pension plan that kicks in at 55) hearty handshake by his government contractor employer about 2 years ago, at age 50 or so, to buy him out of his job. His wife recently received a HUGE inheritance (yes, she has NO obligation to SIL, but I'm pointing out the funds available to this couple). SIL's father not only did not set aside money to pay for his only child to attend college BEFORE he enlisted, he charged the couple over $1000/mo when the kids lived with them, AND demanded that they cater their many many alcohol-fueled parties at the house (SIL's father and stepmother, who are RNY and VSG patients, respectively, are functional alcoholics). I think when parents require rent payment from kids living with them, and don't actually need it for monthly expenses, at least some of it should be set aside to help them when they move out - and that didn't happen. Oh, and they are profligate spenders, and post constantly on FB about their gourmet meals (it appears they eat out 18 or more times a week, and post pix of every meal including breakfasts), expensive wines, and frequent days-long trips to Tahoe, Napa, etc. But there is no offer to help pay for the last year of college for his son.

NOT that SIL is entitled to it, mind you, but because that is what *I* would do in his place. I know, I'm a softy in that respect. (And I just don't LIKE his father and stepmother.)
 
I strongly suspect that the majority of taxpayers think that if he needs an extra year to finish school...well, whoop-di-*******-do. Many of us took more than four years to earn a
It took ME NINE years of working full time and going to school full time to get my Bachelor's degree. I would have to stop at least one semester each year but as long as I didn't skip more than one, I was okay. Just takes much longer. And this was while my stepmom/daddy were paying for private school for the two youngest and then PRIVATE colleges after that. I went to a community college and then was a day student at a local land grant college. Even when I got married a little over 18 years ago, I was STILL paying off the student loans.

My daughters did NOT go to college and are doing very well without the sheepskin in hand. We simply could not afford to send them. Both have excellent jobs/skills...and mostly self taught. One works at a large hospital system in the IT department. The other is in accounting.

Not all programs are fraudulent...could be simply the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing and in government funded programs, times that about 1000 percent.

As to the long versus short form...pre 1980 there was no difference. I know when I separated in 1984, I was given mine, no mention was made of which one it was but looking at it, it's the long form. Didn't know there was a difference. Apparently he was suppose to be given the option of short or long or BOTH at his discharge.
 
So many different experiences. I attended Yale while my own parents were on welfare, by getting scholarships and loans. I took 8 years to finish my PhD - but that was not unheard of, and I was given a small stipend during that time ($525/mo, living in Los Angeles), and I worked full time while going to law school at night. In each case, I also took out available student loans, which I am STILL paying off to this day. But I never felt the need nor saw the sense of taking time off between semesters - the sooner I got done, the sooner my earning potential would take a big jump. I just took loans and bulled through the hard times (and there were plenty, with a mentally ill husband who would periodically go on drug binges). I even borrowed money from my job at one point to pay for sleep-away summer camp for my kids, so I could continue to work full time and study for the bar exam, while their father was incapable of caring for them.

We paid for all of the college expenses of all of our kids, so long as they went. Only one finished. We will not pay for their expenses now, because they didn't take the opportunity (for no good reason, per our judgment) when they should have. But I think that SIL's enlistment and then immediately going to college when he got out would not be such a disqualification, and I'm somewhat appalled that his father doesn't see his way clear to help with ONE year of state college.

SIL has 4/5ths of the requirements for an engineering degree completed. The sooner he gets that degree, the sooner he can get a job in his field, and support his family. Do I think SD should get her ass into a burger-flipping job, and put the kid into daycare? You bet your bippy - for a variety of reasons. However, I ALSO am aware that they are living in Dublin at the moment, an untenable 35+ miles from SJSU, and they must move in the next 60 days or so, when the house they are currently in is put on the market. If she gets a job now, the very real constraints of moving (presumably much closer to SJSU) and getting her kid into daycare only to pull her out a very few weeks later is just unworkable. They need to find and move into an affordable space, and THEN they need to get the kid into daycare (perhaps at SJSU), and SD needs to take the first job that will have her. I TOTALLY agree with this. And if she plans on using those two on-line courses she's taking as an excuse to not get a job, I'm going to blow my cork at her. And SIL is working a few hours a week at a very low-paying engineering internship (it was originally unpaid, but he got them to pay a little after he proved himself) at school, which presumably will help him get a full time job when he graduates, as he will have some work experience.

They may piss me off personally, and maybe the VA program shouldn't cover people in their circumstances, but they are not completely undeserving or unreasonably "entitled" to expect some help from a program that covers their situation, and I would argue that his father could man up and spend some of his substantial disposable income currently used on expensive food and drink to help his only son through the last year of school. But I'm judge-y that way.
 
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