Black lives, blue lives, guns, terrorists, psychos, 2nd amendment...

[k9ophile]

At the risk of wading back in to troubled waters, I think that what’s being overlooked in all of this is that racism is a HUMAN shortcoming. All of us everywhere, every color, have this failing. It’s literally programmed into our code. It is our survival instinct run amok.

I am going to respectfully disagree. Our prejudices and hatred are mostly taught. My dad taught little and big things. This was not formal education. It was daily demonstrated in his words and actions. I was taught by someone who made Archie Bunker look like a great humanitarian. I had a silly school crush on a boy named Silverstein. My dad went ballistic at the thought I could like a Jew. I asked him how he knew my crush was Jewish, he said anybody with "silver" in their name is a Jew. I have spent most of my adult life unlearning the things my father taught me. It is fucking hard work to unlearn that stuff.

 

[Marquis Mark]

"Mostly taught." Maybe. But I think that teaching simply amplifies the instinct which is already there. Liberals, as much as their taught, still have those feelings. And, again, those feelings exists everywhere, all over the world, in every group, every culture, every point in history. That's a lot of teaching. Studies have been conducted that show even babies discriminate, before they have the language to be taught much.

But whether it's taught or instinctive it doesn't really matter. It's real and we have to deal with it. Because we're all in this together and nobody is going to have peace until we all do.

 

[hilary1617]

@k9ophile, I was a recipient of the polar opposite approach to parenting. I was raised in a household with a perspective that the more different one's culture, background, or appearance was from my own, the more interesting that person would be and the more I had to learn/gain from getting to know him/her.

One of my dad's proudest moments was when he marched for Brown v. Board of Education. He was the first to step up as faculty sponsor when a GLBT group formed. He gave me safety tips rather than trying to discourage my attendance when as a college student I decided to protest a KKK rally. Last week when we were in NYC together walking back to our hotel from dinner, my 76 year old mom sat down on the sidewalk to be at eye level when sharing a conversation with a homeless person...

 

[k9ophile]

@k9ophile, I was a recipient of the polar opposite approach to parenting. . I was raised in a household with a perspective that the more different one's culture, background, or appearance was from my own, the more interesting that person would be and the more I had to learn/gain from getting to know him/her.

One of my dad's proudest moments was when he marched for Brown v. Board of Education. He was the first to step up as faculty sponsor when a GBLT group formed. He gave me safety tips rather than trying to discourage my attendance when as a college student I decided to protest a KKK rally. Last week when we were in NYC together walking back to our hotel from dinner, my 76 year old mom sat down on the sidewalk to be at eye level when sharing a conversation with a homeless person...

I can't even imagine that. When MLK was assassinated, mine was a city official. All flags were at half-mast. Except the one my father was in charge of. He said he wasn't going to lower the flag for "some god dammed n*****" That the flag was not at half-mast did not go unnoticed. I was in the hall at my high school when I heard someone talking about it. I was so ashamed and terrified that someone might know my dad was behind it. My dating prohibitions were no: blacks, Mexicans, Catholics, Jew, smokers, drinkers, anyone who wore bell bottomed jeans and had long hair. I graduated from high school in 1969. With the culture at that time, my dating pool was extremely shallow. As shallow as my dad. I have had to teach myself the things you were raised with. I'm so glad I started that and still continue to seek out other points of view. My world has been richer. And a lot less lonely than if I was like my dad.

 

[Marquis Mark]

@k9ophile, I was a recipient of the polar opposite approach to parenting. . I was raised in a household with a perspective that the more different one's culture, background, or appearance was from my own, the more interesting that person would be and the more I had to learn/gain from getting to know him/her.

One of my dad's proudest moments was when he marched for Brown v. Board of Education. He was the first to step up as faculty sponsor when a GBLT group formed. He gave me safety tips rather than trying to discourage my attendance when as a college student I decided to protest a KKK rally. Last week when we were in NYC together walking back to our hotel from dinner, my 76 year old mom sat down on the sidewalk to be at eye level when sharing a conversation with a homeless person...

I was also raised in a 70s, McGovern, "progressive" household. There were plenty of kids around me who said racist, sexist stuff, but I didn't indulge or learn much from them. I think when people say that kind of stuff it's a reflection on them, rather than the group they're trying to disparage. I think it's sad that we can't have an Archie Bunker character on TV anymore for that reason. He didn't teach racism/intolerance to anyone. Rather, we were allowed to see how fear-based and ignorant he was. We laughed at him, not with him.

Now I'm raising a teen who sometimes shows some racist/sexist attitudes that I know neither his mother nor I taught him. But there they are. I try to enlighten him in the most compassionate, non-scolding, put-yourself-in-the-other's-shoes-way possible. But sometimes I feel like I'm trying to teach a dog not to chase a squirrel.

Don’t know if he’s just trying to push my buttons because he knows how I feel, or if it’s just that nature is more powerful than nurture.

 

[Charris]

@Charris I'm so sorry that you, your daughter, her boyfriend and Toot were put through that horrible experience. I can't even imagine how it would make me feel if someone did that to one of my children.

You're absolutely right that a spade is a spade, the struggle is real, and none of us truly can walk a mile in each others shoes, much as that would turn things around.

(And when it comes to actual versus metaphoric footwear, mine are orthopedic Mary Janes and I'm pretty sure yours are fabulous heels.)

Well @hilary1617 they used to be until I broke my entire body. Lol now I put on hills to take pictures sitting or laying down. After about 5 minutes my knee, foot and leg swell like crazy. Just after 5 minutes of creating an illusion. Hehe

 

[Charris]

At the risk of wading back in to troubled waters, I think that what’s being overlooked in all of this is that racism is a HUMAN shortcoming. All of us everywhere, every color, have this failing. It’s literally programmed into our code. It is our survival instinct run amok.

In Mexico the “Indians” are discriminated against by those with more Spanish blood, the Greeks hate the Turks (and vice versa), tall people discriminate against the short (I know. I’m 6’3” and hate short people). The beautiful shun the ugly (ditto), rich against poor. Poor don’t care much for rich people, either. I’ve heard complaints from dark-skinned African Americans that they are discriminated against by light skinned AAs. Tribes battle each other all over the world. In the US, it’s the blue vs the red states. The South versus everyone else. The Shiites hate the Sunnis. We all know nobody likes fat people. And everyone hates the Jews.

We’re united by our animosity.

Where I think we get off track is by assuming that any one group is genetically predisposed to racism/discrimination more than another. No. We’re all capable of it. Don’t believe me? Next to tie someone cuts you off in traffic observe your instinct if the driver is another gender, race, age group or, God forbid, Korean.

Comedians of all colors have race-based routines attacking the other. And we laugh.

I agree with President Obama when he says we’re not as divided as we think. And although it’s not a popular sentiment to express in the current climate, I also agree with him when he points out things are better than they used to be. We are far past the time when a white man could not date a black woman (I know caused I’ve dated a few and nobody gave us a second look), separate water fountains, back of the bus, or of it being inconceivable for a black man to become president. And now, a woman. Both of whom, as a white dude, I have and will vote for. But first I voted for Bernie Sanders, a Jew.

We have a long way to go, obviously, but we have made progress. We should acknowledge it and continue to build on it. Not deny it. Saying it’s worse than the 50’s, feeds battles, hatred, mistrust and polarization. It’s the Trump tactic and the left (of which I’m a member) is as guilty as the right. When the right goes on about how Obama is the worst president ever and cites stats divorced from context, how is that different than when the left carries on out of context?

We can get along, but first we have to acknowledge that all are collectively responsible and that no real “conversation” can be had if we start of by assuming the other’s feelings and experiences are invalid, that only we are exempt from the genetic predisposition toward tribalism and mostly, if we really, really try to listen.

MLK and Gandhi had it right.

I KNEW THERE WAS A REASON YOU MALICIOUSLY ATTACKED ME. YOU HATE SHORT PEOPLE!!! ANYONE UNDER 5 FT is not as good as you!!!!! Lol Jk

 

[Spiky Bugger]

At the risk of wading back in to troubled waters, I think that what’s being overlooked in all of this is that racism is a HUMAN shortcoming. All of us everywhere, every color, have this failing. It’s literally programmed into our code. It is our survival instinct run amok.

In Mexico the “Indians” are discriminated against by those with more Spanish blood, the Greeks hate the Turks (and vice versa), tall people discriminate against the short (I know. I’m 6’3” and hate short people). The beautiful shun the ugly (ditto), rich against poor. Poor don’t care much for rich people, either. I’ve heard complaints from dark-skinned African Americans that they are discriminated against by light skinned AAs. Tribes battle each other all over the world. In the US, it’s the blue vs the red states. The South versus everyone else. The Shiites hate the Sunnis. We all know nobody likes fat people. And everyone hates the Jews.

We’re united by our animosity.

Where I think we get off track is by assuming that any one group is genetically predisposed to racism/discrimination more than another. No. We’re all capable of it. Don’t believe me? Next to tie someone cuts you off in traffic observe your instinct if the driver is another gender, race, age group or, God forbid, Korean.

Comedians of all colors have race-based routines attacking the other. And we laugh.

I agree with President Obama when he says we’re not as divided as we think. And although it’s not a popular sentiment to express in the current climate, I also agree with him when he points out things are better than they used to be. We are far past the time when a white man could not date a black woman (I know caused I’ve dated a few and nobody gave us a second look), separate water fountains, back of the bus, or of it being inconceivable for a black man to become president. And now, a woman. Both of whom, as a white dude, I have and will vote for. But first I voted for Bernie Sanders, a Jew.

We have a long way to go, obviously, but we have made progress. We should acknowledge it and continue to build on it. Not deny it. Saying it’s worse than the 50’s, feeds battles, hatred, mistrust and polarization. It’s the Trump tactic and the left (of which I’m a member) is as guilty as the right. When the right goes on about how Obama is the worst president ever and cites stats divorced from context, how is that different than when the left carries on out of context?

We can get along, but first we have to acknowledge that all are collectively responsible and that no real “conversation” can be had if we start of by assuming the other’s feelings and experiences are invalid, that only we are exempt from the genetic predisposition toward tribalism and mostly, if we really, really try to listen.

MLK and Gandhi had it right.

It IS a survival thing.

Same = Safe. Different = Danger.

My Mexican-American (some of whom actually had Indian boood and I know that because I got a check from the Feds because MY tribe had a RATIFIED treaty) ancestors had an Indian woman who came to their rather primitive home and, in a vat outside, with boiling water, did the laundry.

My Italian side is Sicilian...aka " Black Italians," a designation used on some of the immigration documentation.

I will leave it to Africa-Americans to explain the difference between "good hair" and "bad hair," but there are racist/survival aspects even to those titles.

 

[k9ophile]

I was also raised in a 70s, McGovern, "progressive" household. There were plenty of kids around me who said racist, sexist stuff, but I didn't indulge or learn much from them. I think when people say that kind of stuff it's a reflection on them, rather than the group they're trying to disparage. I think it's sad that we can't have an Archie Bunker character on TV anymore for that reason. He didn't teach racism/intolerance to anyone. Rather, we were allowed to see how fear-based and ignorant he was. We laughed at him, not with him.

Now I'm raising a teen who sometimes shows some racist/sexist attitudes that I know neither his mother nor I taught him. But there they are. I try to enlighten him in the most compassionate, non-scolding, put-yourself-in-the-other's-shoes-way possible. But sometimes I feel like I'm trying to teach a dog not to chase a squirrel.

Don’t know if he’s just trying to push my buttons because he knows how I feel, or if it’s just that nature is more powerful than nurture.

Maybe he's just rebelling against everything you believe in like a typical teenager. (joke) When my father threatened to kill me for opposing his stands, I moved out. We were staring to reconcile when he died at age 50. He did realize he'd been wrong about so much three months before he died. I actually pitied him. Not for dying, but for all those years in between when he was so miserable. And in time I forgave him. I'll never know if he forgave me. My forgiving him did nothing for him, but how much better my life was when I gave up all that anger and resentment.

 

[southernlady]

My dad went ballistic at the thought I could like a Jew. I asked him how he knew my crush was Jewish, he said anybody with "silver" in their name is a Jew.

Interesting comment as my husband has some ancestors named Silver. They were not Jewish. The name Silver is Old English: From the English word for the precious metal or the colour, ultimately derived from Old English seolfor.

 

[hilary1617]

Wow @k9ophile - I can't imagine that. Glad you were able to forgive and move forward for both your sakes.

@Marquis Mark, my 9 year old daughter thinks boys have "cooties" and runs around shouting "Girl Power" and I don't know whether to encourage or discourage either of these behaviors as I don't want her to flip too far in the other direction. Parenting is definitely difficult. I can only imagine the teen years - based on my own history of adolescent misbehavior, I'm in for trouble.

 

[Marquis Mark]

I KNEW THERE WAS A REASON YOU MALICIOUSLY ATTACKED ME. YOU HATE SHORT PEOPLE!!! ANYONE UNDER 5 FT is not as good as you!!!!! Lol Jk

Yes, they're very irritating with their Napoleonic complexes, always asking me to reach stuff for them at the supermarket, never bumping their precious little heads on doorways, etc. Hate them all... .

On a serious note, it's disheartening what you and your kids go through. Doubt there's much I can say to ease that wound. I'm not in your shoes, but from my "other side" perspective, I really do think it's a fearful, ignorant minority inflicting most of the damage. In my experience it's best not to go to war with people like that. They're already at war with themselves.

 

[Marquis Mark]

Wow @k9ophile - I can't imagine that. Glad you were able to forgive and move forward for both your sakes.

@Marquis Mark, my 9 year old daughter thinks boys have "cooties" and runs around shouting "Girl Power" and I don't know whether to encourage or discourage either of these behaviors as I don't want her to flip too far in the other direction. Parenting is definitely difficult. I can only imagine the teen years - based on my own history of adolescent misbehavior, I'm in for trouble.

Yes, you are. I won't sugarcoat it. It's an age where they think they know everything, but know nothing. They're childish brains have been thrust into adult bodies and the sudden infusion of hormones is more than they can handle. Like all crazy people, they don't think they're crazy. But they'll make you crazy. Your only satisfaction will come when they have kids of their own and you tell them you're too busy to babysit.

I think teens should be force relocated to a special camp in North Dakota where they can irritate each other. Once they can pass a civility test (administered by me) they can be re-released into the general population.

 

[Marquis Mark]

Maybe he's just rebelling against everything you believe in like a typical teenager. (joke) When my father threatened to kill me for opposing his stands, I moved out. We were staring to reconcile when he died at age 50. He did realize he'd been wrong about so much three months before he died. I actually pitied him. Not for dying, but for all those years in between when he was so miserable. And in time I forgave him. I'll never know if he forgave me. My forgiving him did nothing for him, but how much better my life was when I gave up all that anger and resentment.

I think you're onto something. It's good that your dad did at least see the error of his ways. I don't get mad at racists. I just think they're sad. To me, people like Archie Bunker are just afraid of the future. Must suck to live like that.

 

[k9ophile]

Interesting comment as my husband has some ancestors named Silver. They were not Jewish. The name Silver is Old English: From the English word for the precious metal or the colour, ultimately derived from Old English seolfor.

I know! I thought he was making it up.