What the feck just happened????

[JackieOnLine]

I hear your pain Marquis Mark and I hesitate to offer anything hopeful because I am having trouble tolerating any "silver linings" pointed out to me when I'm not completely past the set things on fire phase of grief. oh, wait, it's just anger: not supposed to actually set anything on fire.

but we really can't assume we know what is going to happen. The Orange One has said so many conflicting things (and so many that are outright illegal) it's hard to know what HE will actually do. then factor in the handlers who will actually be acting as President, OMG.

do you have other like-minded people to hang with, online or IRL? because that actually helps.

@hilary1617 - sometimes it's good to unfollow people just for your own peace of mind. I have had to and will continue to for as long as I need to. in general, I am very much against blocking/ignoring/unfollowing people but Mental Health First!

@Spiky Bugger - are you OK? I only "see" you on this site...

 

[k9ophile]

Unless you're terrified of him and his supporters...

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOT NECESSARILY FACT BASED. YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH PART OR ALL OF IT. I DON'T CARE. I DON'T CARE IF YOU EVEN READ IT. BUT IF YOU DO, IT'S NOT A CHALLENGE TO YOUR BEFLIEFS. HOW BORING AND DANGEROUS IT WOULD BE IF WE ALL WERE GOVERNED BY THE SAME GROUPTHINK.

Do you mean the yahoos that the media focused on or the ones who want jobs, reasonable immigration policies, more affordable health care than Obamacare, and not excited about an ultra-Liberal supreme court? I'll admit SOME of his supporters are down right terrifying. However, here in fly-over red-state TN, I know several of his supporters. They are kind, sane, intelligent, and conservative. Oh, I know "conservative" means different things to different people. Just remember there are extremist "liberals" as well as extremist "conservatives" and I find both equally terrifying.

Seriously. Have you ever talked to someone who doesn't think like you do when it comes to politics? (I mean this in a general way and not directed at any one person here.) Let's take just one example that is controversial: access to bathrooms. Do I want to see transgender people beat up in bathrooms? Hell to the no. Do I want to see some pervert in the ladies room ready to grab my by the pussy because he can use the ladies room according to the government? Hell to the no. I think that the transgendered person is more threatened and is more likely to be attacked than the scenario of the pervert.

However, conservative women have been told they have no right to privacy or safety in public restrooms. Or at least that's what they think they've been told. But instead of calmly making a case for safer bathrooms for all, they are labeled hateful homophobes. Once the nasty name calling starts, all chances of reasonable conversation comes to a screeching halt. When Trump's supporters were all lumped into the actions of a few that truly are deplorable, what did anyone expect?

As I said, I know Trump supporters that aren't deplorable, but their entertainment or propaganda value is meaningless to most of the media. Most of them wanted a better representative of their values and the GOP failed them. That doesn't mean they are going to abandon their values nor should they. I also believe the Democrats were forced into a less than desirable candidate with Clinton. But these are the choices we got. If WE just sit back and accept this, it's our fault. I see this as one a giant call for reform for BOTH major parties. Everyone needs to just get the fuck over this and work harder at mid-term elections. They also need to take more control of their respective party so it isn't hijacked by the likes of Trump or Clinton in '20.

Oh, and could some one explain to me why "Orange Nazi" is okay , but "Hitlerly" or "Killary" is hate speech? (Again, this is a rhetorical question. In my opinion, both are equally vile and unproductive.)

 

[k9ophile]

 

[Marquis Mark]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOT NECESSARILY FACT BASED. YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH PART OR ALL OF IT. I DON'T CARE. I DON'T CARE IF YOU EVEN READ IT. BUT IF YOU DO, IT'S NOT A CHALLENGE TO YOUR BEFLIEFS. HOW BORING AND DANGEROUS IT WOULD BE IF WE ALL WERE GOVERNED BY THE SAME GROUPTHINK.

Do you mean the yahoos that the media focused on or the ones who want jobs, reasonable immigration policies, more affordable health care than Obamacare, and not excited about an ultra-Liberal supreme court? I'll admit SOME of his supporters are down right terrifying. However, here in fly-over red-state TN, I know several of his supporters. They are kind, sane, intelligent, and conservative. Oh, I know "conservative" means different things to different people. Just remember there are extremist "liberals" as well as extremist "conservatives" and I find both equally terrifying.

Seriously. Have you ever talked to someone who doesn't think like you do when it comes to politics? (I mean this in a general way and not directed at any one person here.) Let's take just one example that is controversial: access to bathrooms. Do I want to see transgender people beat up in bathrooms? Hell to the no. Do I want to see some pervert in the ladies room ready to grab my by the pussy because he can use the ladies room according to the government? Hell to the no. I think that the transgendered person is more threatened and is more likely to be attacked than the scenario of the pervert.

However, conservative women have been told they have no right to privacy or safety in public restrooms. Or at least that's what they think they've been told. But instead of calmly making a case for safer bathrooms for all, they are labeled hateful homophobes. Once the nasty name calling starts, all chances of reasonable conversation comes to a screeching halt. When Trump's supporters were all lumped into the actions of a few that truly are deplorable, what did anyone expect?

As I said, I know Trump supporters that aren't deplorable, but their entertainment or propaganda value is meaningless to most of the media. Most of them wanted a better representative of their values and the GOP failed them. That doesn't mean they are going to abandon their values nor should they. I also believe the Democrats were forced into a less than desirable candidate with Clinton. But these are the choices we got. If WE just sit back and accept this, it's our fault. I see this as one a giant call for reform for BOTH major parties. Everyone needs to just get the fuck over this and work harder at mid-term elections. They also need to take more control of their respective party so it isn't hijacked by the likes of Trump or Clinton in '20.

Oh, and could some one explain to me why "Orange Nazi" is okay , but "Hitlerly" or "Killary" is hate speech? (Again, this is a rhetorical question. In my opinion, both are equally vile and unproductive.)

I'll take a crack at your last question: The reason why there is no comparison between "Hitlery" and "Orange Hitler" is because Hillary Clinton doesn't mock the disabled, threaten to ban an entire religion, call Mexicans drug dealers and rapists, threaten the press, ask supporters to punch people in the face (and offer to pay their legal bills), threaten to bomb the shit out of people, etc, etc, etc. As a Republican newspaper said about Trump, "He offers no solutions, but rather just hangs scapegoats like pinatas and invites voters to take a swing."

In terms of comparing Trump and HRC and concluding they're both roughly as bad, I agree with Bill Maher's take on that:

 

[Munchkin]

I have read a lot of history. It's never been a good thing to give permission for others to behave badly. Human beings are capable of great good and great evil. All they need is a little push in either direction.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

We need to fight for everyone they are throwing under the bus. Why? Because they are coming for you next.

 

[Marquis Mark]

I hear your pain Marquis Mark and I hesitate to offer anything hopeful because I am having trouble tolerating any "silver linings" pointed out to me when I'm not completely past the set things on fire phase of grief. oh, wait, it's just anger: not supposed to actually set anything on fire.

but we really can't assume we know what is going to happen. The Orange One has said so many conflicting things (and so many that are outright illegal) it's hard to know what HE will actually do. then factor in the handlers who will actually be acting as President, OMG.

do you have other like-minded people to hang with, online or IRL? because that actually helps.

@hilary1617 - sometimes it's good to unfollow people just for your own peace of mind. I have had to and will continue to for as long as I need to. in general, I am very much against blocking/ignoring/unfollowing people but Mental Health First!

@Spiky Bugger - are you OK? I only "see" you on this site...

You're right. The future is unwritten. Trumplethinksins may be taken down by a scandal within the first three weeks. If not that, his supporters will surely grow disappointed in him when they realize he's just in it for himself (although he is amazing at deflecting blame and that's what scares me).

I just feel terrible that everything Obama tried to do will now be dismantled -- clean energy, financial regulation, Obamacare -- by the greed of those who don't care about what happens to the planet or us once they're dead. As long as they can suck as much as they can out of all of us now. It's a sickness and it's spreading.

 

[JackieOnLine]

K9 I'll address the question you asked in a bit, I need to catch up on things.

meanwhile, I want to share some links that I've found - as I get to them. one is a blog called Stonekettle Station by a man who I don't consistently agree with but he is well worth reading. one of the blog posts I really liked was explaining why he wasn't ashamed to be voting for Clinton, as many third party lefties told him he should be (he gets a ton of hate mail, apparently)

Shameless

just to give you an idea of what he's about, from the link:

I’m a white straight male veteran and if you listen to people who purport to be experts on who I should be, I should be a Republican. I should be a Conservative. I should be a nationalist and a Jingoist and a gun-waving patriot and should probably belong to a militia. I should be a Christian. I should despise my government.
..............
I believe Third Parties serve a useful function as reservoirs of idealism and wellsprings of new ideas and often encompass an enthusiasm sorely lacking in the two mainstream parties.

 

[JackieOnLine]

I'm glad you shared that, Munchkin.

Human beings are capable of great good and great evil. All they need is a little push in either direction.

omg, this is SO true.

 

[JackieOnLine]

Have you ever talked to someone who doesn't think like you do when it comes to politics?

sometimes I can and sometimes I can't - this week it's been more I can't.

Once the nasty name calling starts, all chances of reasonable conversation comes to a screeching halt. When Trump's supporters were all lumped into the actions of a few that truly are deplorable

I really can't disagree with this

I see this as one a giant call for reform for BOTH major parties.

oh, yes!!

Orange Nazi" is okay , but "Hitlerly" or "Killary" is hate speech?

it's a hard question - I certainly have felt my share of hatred this week - I hate Trump, no doubt. I'm working on it since this is BAD for me, obviously. there is more to say on this one but my brain seems to be done for this afternoon. after all, it's dark out now.

 

[k9ophile]

I'll take a crack at your last question: The reason why there is no comparison between "Hitlery" and "Orange Hitler" is because Hillary Clinton doesn't mock the disabled, threaten to ban an entire religion, call Mexicans drug dealers and rapists, threaten the press, ask supporters to punch people in the face (and offer to pay their legal bills), threaten to bomb the shit out of people, etc, etc, etc. As a Republican newspaper said about Trump, "He offers no solutions, but rather just hangs scapegoats like pinatas and invites voters to take a swing."

In terms of comparing Trump and HRC and concluding they're both roughly as bad, I agree with Bill Maher's take on that:

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate your thoughts. I am appalled by the things Trump has said and I hope he's all bark and no bite. I really wasn't talking about the candidates. I only observe that the name calling by their supporters is equally unproductive. I am very concerned about the violent protests by Trump's opponents.

There was an incident a few days ago here when an open transgender woman's pick-up truck was burned and pro-Trump graffiti was painted on the charred remains of her vehicle. Almost immediately, a GoFundMe account was set up to replace it. Who's going to help the people of Portland replace their damaged property? The damage was done by anti-Trump people. I don't think Trump is going to jump in to help the victims by replacing or repairing the destruction. I see violence conducted by both sides to be equally abhorrent.

I never took Trump seriously. I thought anyone who supported him was certifiably if not criminally insane. The I talked to some. They are entitled to their concerns even if I don't agree with them. I cringe when they say Democrats are baby killing atheists. That's a broad and inaccurate brush with which to paint ALL of them. It is equally wrong to paint ALL of Trump's supporters as misogynists and bigots.

I am grateful that we can discuss things without devolving from polite discussion into a infective one.

 

[k9ophile]

K9 I'll address the question you asked in a bit, I need to catch up on things.

meanwhile, I want to share some links that I've found - as I get to them. one is a blog called Stonekettle Station by a man who I don't consistently agree with but he is well worth reading. one of the blog posts I really liked was explaining why he wasn't ashamed to be voting for Clinton, as many third party lefties told him he should be (he gets a ton of hate mail, apparently)

Shameless

just to give you an idea of what he's about, from the link:

I’m a white straight male veteran and if you listen to people who purport to be experts on who I should be, I should be a Republican. I should be a Conservative. I should be a nationalist and a Jingoist and a gun-waving patriot and should probably belong to a militia. I should be a Christian. I should despise my government.
..............
I believe Third Parties serve a useful function as reservoirs of idealism and wellsprings of new ideas and often encompass an enthusiasm sorely lacking in the two mainstream parties.

Thanks, Ms. Jackie. I agree with him completely about third parties and will definitely look for his blog.

 

[Marquis Mark]

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate your thoughts. I am appalled by the things Trump has said and I hope he's all bark and no bite. I really wasn't talking about the candidates. I only observe that the name calling by their supporters is equally unproductive. I am very concerned about the violent protests by Trump's opponents.

There was an incident a few days ago here when an open transgender woman's pick-up truck was burned and pro-Trump graffiti was painted on the charred remains of her vehicle. Almost immediately, a GoFundMe account was set up to replace it. Who's going to help the people of Portland replace their damaged property? The damage was done by anti-Trump people. I don't think Trump is going to jump in to help the victims by replacing or repairing the destruction. I see violence conducted by both sides to be equally abhorrent.

I never took Trump seriously. I thought anyone who supported him was certifiably if not criminally insane. The I talked to some. They are entitled to their concerns even if I don't agree with them. I cringe when they say Democrats are baby killing atheists. That's a broad and inaccurate brush with which to paint ALL of them. It is equally wrong to paint ALL of Trump's supporters as misogynists and bigots.

I am grateful that we can discuss things without devolving from polite discussion into a infective one.

It is equally wrong to paint ALL of Trump's supporters as misogynists and bigots.

I certainly don't paint them all as women hating bigots. Most of the HRC voters I know don't, either. In fact, many Trump voters supported Obama, more white women voted for Trump than Clinton and Trump even got 29% of the Latino vote. So the whole PC rationale doesn't fly much with me, although I'm sure that was a factor in some people's votes.

No, I fault Trump voters for a lack of critical thinking (different than raw intelligence). They want a businessman but he's declared bankruptcy 6 times. Oh, but he's a billionaire! Then why won't he show his taxes? They want someone who's a patriot out to help the working guy, but he got out of the draft on heel spurs, is proud to pay no taxes and stiffs his contractors. They want honesty, but it's clear he's constantly lying (check politifact.org). They want integrity, but he changes positions like the wind. They want someone who can get things done, but look what a mess his campaign was. They want a uniter, but he's already alienated half the country and he hasn't even taken office. People are already throwing mazel-tov (sic) cocktails...need I go on?

Talk about group think...where did over half Trump voters get the idea that Obama was a Muslim and not a Citizen? On their own? No, they got it by being Fox News guppies, swallowing everything that was told to them without reason or doing their own homework. And don't forget who started that lie...Trump. And that WAS racist as hell. If Obama were white he never would have questioned his legitimacy.

Alright, I'm done here, but please reconsider this they're all the same line of thought. They're NOT. Hillary was a charmless, stiff policy wonk. Trump is an indecent, selfish, unqualified man. Big difference. To me.

 

[k9ophile]

Yeah, it's crazy. Do you suppose there is such a thing as Minnesota Syndrome? I'm still questioning the election of both Jesse Ventura and Al Franken. I also have to wonder what Californians were thinking with Reagan and Schwarzenegger. I guess I should never underestimate the power of celebrity.

Don't lose your passion.

 

[Munchkin]

Yeah, it's crazy. Do you suppose there is such a thing as Minnesota Syndrome? I'm still questioning the election of both Jesse Ventura and Al Franken. I also have to wonder what Californians were thinking with Reagan and Schwarzenegger. I guess I should never underestimate the power of celebrity.

Don't lose your passion.

Yes, I do! I was living in MN during the Ventura years. Many people feel left out and not included in the government at all levels. The disenfranchised will do some crazy things. Including voting for a candidate who is clearly unqualified and not suited to political life.

Here's one from this last election. Many states allow write in votes. There were 14,000 votes for Harambe. Who just happens to be a dead gorilla.

I do think the campaigns were both damaged by the media. They traded sense for sensationalism. I don't believe much of anything they say now until I hear it from several different sources. And it's too much soundbyte and not enough discussion. We have all heard about the wall. I heard it was going to make America great again, it would be beautiful, cheap, and Mexico was going to pay for it. Sure. I kept waiting for the followup questions. How were they going to put the wall through the 75 walkable miles of the Totono O'oldam(spelling may be wrong) reservation? Technically it's own sovereign nation. They have vowed to fight to the death to keep the wall from cutting their nation in half. I never heard the answer to that one.

I think in true reality TV star fashion, he told his followers what they wanted to hear. After all, in his world, everything can be fixed in under 60 minutes. There are going to be a lot people really pissed off when he fails to deliver. And I think the RNC allowed Trump to get the nomination KNOWING he is impeachable. If he doesn't toe their line, they will get rid of him and Pence is next in line. And I think Pence is totally a party line guy too. And he is scary! But truth be told, he may well be impeachable too. Did anyone else notice how fast Trump backpedaled on his promise to get term limits in Congress? I would guess he has already been warned by that snake, Mitch McConnell. I think we have a very dangerous situation here where the legislative branch can hold sway and have undue influence on the executive branch. But these are my thoughts and I can't prove them.

We are living in interesting times.

 

[k9ophile]

@Munchkin I love your input! Every politician over promises and, yes, it will be interesting when Trump won't be able to build the wall, nuke whoever, and whatever else crazy idea he had. Your thought about the RNC allowing the nomination with impeachment possible isn't unimaginable. I truly believe that both major parties are controlled by snakes with money. All of us are being duped in one way or another.

I saw a meme chastising people to research things, that ignorance is a choice. Maybe. I, along with millions, distrust the media. Any and/or all of it. I see an overabundance of opinion being presented as fact. I'm guilty of that in that I have a lot of thoughts I can't prove. Like my statement about snakes being in charge and we're being duped. I can't prove it, yet in my gut I believe it.

I do believe the country is headed for very challenging times. There will be fractures, bruises, and other things that will harm us. I'm naïve enough to believe that nothing will be fatal. Painful? Yes. Slow to heal? Yes. Fatal? It may come close, but it will not kill us.

 

[KathrynK]

I still have a sick feeling in my gut about this, but I have been given examples for some response to the challenges coming. Like Katie Perry donating money to Planned Parenthood, or or my husband who bought a subscription to a real print newspaper that has independent reporters. I live in an ethnically diverse area in NYC and a group of women that I belong to was asked if someone could accompany a woman to work who wears a hijab, after she was told to 'get that dirty rag off of your head' by two teenagers. I'm still recovering from a broken femur and have trouble with subway stairs so I can't help her commute, but I offered to take neighborhood trips with her. I donated to the Environmental Defense Fund. A neighborhood nonprofit started a program to educate about anti-deportation strategies and connect undocumented people to lawyers who are volunteering. The idea is to take an issue that you think will be adversely affected by the new administration and do something to support what you believe in. It hasn't gotten rid of the sick feeling I have about the future, but it has made me feel like I can do something.