Re Ferguson...my response...

[brooklyngirl]

I don't feel white guilt like you do, and I have experienced both discrimination of being of color and the reverse of WP (being treated poorly because I am white, even tho I'm not really but honestly who's gonna hold off on their snap judgement of me until they have perused my family tree and genetic code?) I have come to the opinion that discrimination and treating others badly is a sadly inescapable part of the human condition that we ALL need to work together to eliminate. But it's not going to be eliminated by blaming or tearing down other races (cultures, genders, orientations, levels of sophistication, differently sized people, people of varying ability, etc) Oh, and @brooklyngirl your goal of helping change all that is not too liberal at all in my mind. That's just sorta humanist.

Yeah, humanist, I'll take that label too

 

[southernlady]

Racism is definitely not a "whites against others" issue. Ask the Kurds, Albanians.....any of who knows how many tribal groups in various African nations....

Ask Irish Catholics in the Northeast, or Italians in Philadelphia (and other locations), or Germans in a lot of Midwestern and Western places. The Catholic-Protestant divide was all but insurmountable sixty years ago--anybody remember what a BIG DEAL it was to elect a Catholic President? (I don't, but my parents sure talked about it--I also don't remember whether it mattered to them.)

I DO remember and it was a hell of a big deal...actually bigger in many ways than electing a black president. Everyone was afraid the POPE would be in charge in America.

 

[brooklyngirl]

I'll never forget one of my HS history teachers asking us what was so odd/historical about JFK being elected president. He started talking about WASPs and was trying to prompt someone to say that he was the first catholic president and in the 90s we seriously didn't understand what the big deal was. I don't think that I quite understand, even now, what the big deal was. Generation gap at it's best or worst?

 

[southernlady]

I'll never forget one of my HS history teachers asking us what was so odd/historical about JFK being elected president. He started talking about WASPs and was trying to prompt someone to say that he was the first catholic president and in the 90s we seriously didn't understand what the big deal was. I don't think that I quite understand, even now, what the big deal was. Generation gap at it's best or worst?

Okay, I am a WASP...total accident OF birth.

The big deal about a Catholic getting elected was rooted in why we started this country in the first place...it goes back that far. Remember, the Protestants left England because of religious persecution. Think Pilgrims/Plymouth Colony and Puritans/Mass Bay Colony. Even tho, at the time, the English were Anglican and not actually Catholic, the Anglican Church had far too much Catholic influence to suit them. Then add the heavily Catholic influence of the Irish that settled in America in the 1840's.

It was a big deal AT THE time but looking back, it's hard to really understand why.

 

[brooklyngirl]

Okay, I am a WASP...total accident OF birth.

The big deal about a Catholic getting elected was rooted in why we started this country in the first place...it goes back that far. Remember, the Protestants left England because of religious persecution. Think Pilgrims/Plymouth Colony and Puritans/Mass Bay Colony. Even tho, at the time, the English were Anglican and not actually Catholic, the Anglican Church had far too much Catholic influence to suit them. Then add the heavily Catholic influence of the Irish that settled in America in the 1840's.

It was a big deal AT THE time but looking back, it's hard to really understand why.

What's funny, is that I'm technically a "WASP" (or maybe half? Whatever) but I didn't know what it meant then and I don't think I fit the stereotype anyway

 

[k9ophile]

Someone has to flip rich white folks burgers and it sure as **** isn't going to be the children of rich white people.
Yeah, it's the children of poor white people as well as others who aren't rolling in money no matter their color, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation. And most really rich people don't patronize the places where hamburgers are flipped. While I am not discounting the notion of White Privilege, I think there are way too many privileges based on wealth. After all, "kids" who got endless deferments because they were students weren't cannon fodder in Korea, Viet Nam or any other action where the majority of the Armed Forces was draftees. I also feel that to base the divide on something as simple as skin color does not honor all the accomplishments made by other than white people. To narrow wealth (or capitalism) as something only whites can achieve is as inane a notion as that all people of color must be Democrats. Believe it or not, not all Republicans are old rich white men. The more we divide people into rich/poor, black/white, or Democrats/Republicans as radical opposites on the spectrum without acknowledging the masses in the middle, the more ****** we are going to be.

Now I am not saying that is what was meant by the tiny little bit of the post that I quoted. Yet when I read that sentence, I read of a wide chasm that shall never be closed. I just don't think that's the case. That's just the crap that gets the most print or air time.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Okay, I am a WASP...total accident OF birth.

The big deal about a Catholic getting elected was rooted in why we started this country in the first place...it goes back that far. Remember, the Protestants left England because of religious persecution. Think Pilgrims/Plymouth Colony and Puritans/Mass Bay Colony. Even tho, at the time, the English were Anglican and not actually Catholic, the Anglican Church had far too much Catholic influence to suit them. Then add the heavily Catholic influence of the Irish that settled in America in the 1840's.

It was a big deal AT THE time but looking back, it's hard to really understand why.

Given my lack of motivation to accomplish anything, I was watching Barefoot in the Park on Netflix or Hulu the other day. Robert Redford's character was was listing the oddballs who lived in the building...including the couple in 4B (or wherever) that were of "the same sex but nobody knows what sex that is."

At the time, there was no problem with that line.

 

[kirmy]

I've been thinking a lot about white privilege and here is my take on it. It isn't just about Americans...although you are right to express your experiences and opinions they are YOUR experiences and cannot be equated as proof of a wider picture/ nor mine!

To immigrate to Australia from Sub-Saharan Africa you used to need $100 000 to qualify (when I lived in Oz in 2002). You only needed £5000 from Europe. If you come to Australia now from any myriad of Asian and African countries without proper immigration control you are taken without trial to a maximum security jail in the wilds of Indonesia or the dessert in the Northern Territory and held until deportation. You effectively vanish. Our policy is designed to keep people of colour out/ undesirables etc. Britain is adopting Australia's immigration policy. It is systemically racist. Keep the different people out.

The structure is this. There are a lot more brown people on this planet then white. White people are getting very protectionist about those borders. Economies are controlled and mitigated to prevent the have-nots getting what the haves have. The idea that you can be anyone in America is great...but try immigrating there from Africa and getting a Green Card. Good ******* luck with that! Don't come to us on boats or we will put you in jail. You are not welcome here.
4 kids argues that if she can do it then anyone can. Well I'm the first university educated person in my family. My entire family live on the dole, sickness benefits or pensions. My mother is a grifter. I grew up with utter corruption and organised crime as my go to. I was a product of my environment. The thing is though I had the personal traits that caused me to want more. That is unique to me. I cannot suppose this is the norm because my family still live in poverty, my friends still live in poverty and drugs and crime is standard. Let me add in Australia poverty doesn't look as bad as in the UK.

I observed the aftermath of Katrina. The government response to helping a predominantly poor black population was pitiful yet you can be sure if it happened in Orange county the army would be there rebuilding along with the rest of the glitterati. There would be a "feed the world" style concert and every photo opportunity going to make sure people saw us playing nice....cue close up on the tears. Didn't happen in New Orleans did it? Baby Bush got them a digger. Nice!

So I want to ask you do you get followed when you go shopping by store security? Do you worry that your son will get arrested every time he leaves the house after dark? Do you live in an area of very high gun crime and gangs? Is all of your family living off benefits...say for the last three generations? Does your community have disproportionately high child sexual abuse and rape? Is domestic violence just what happens? Do you need to send your kids to work, sell drugs etc so you can support your addiction? The chips are higher for many then they ever where for you and me despite our robust attitudes. Is it then coincidence that the poorest most incarcerated and most profiled members of society are black? I'm not making this up, it is readily available statistics. Now as a white woman from a white trash background I'm going to suppress the urge to bring my life experience to bear. We are talking about Ferguson, not South Central Brisbane.

Most people on here are living above the poverty line. Think about it...we can afford bariatric surgery. Most of us have not a ******* clue about true and crushing poverty, ingrained racism and hate. And look at this thread! Has any people of colour i.e. and actual Black person made any comment?

The reality is we are discussing race from a perspective of middle class women who despite racial back grounds pass as white. And it isn't a problem...really!

So why is your country going to war within?

 

[hilary1617]

@4KidsAndaDog , this article refers to the facts of a scenario where an individual in essence appears to be falsely blaming lack of access to white privilege as a key reason for not being credited for inventing something he didn't invent. It made me reflect on your recent comments and thought you might find in interesting.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...guy-invented-email-even-though-he-didnt.shtml

 

[southernlady]

@4KidsAndaDog , this article refers to the facts of a scenario where an individual in essence appears to be falsely blaming lack of access to white privilege as a key reason for not being credited for inventing something he didn't invent. It made me reflect on your recent comments and thought you might find in interesting.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...guy-invented-email-even-though-he-didnt.shtml

Interesting article..

 

[hilary1617]

I think that the power to control access to limited resources is at the core of most conflicts. Inevitably one group gains an advantageous position. Then the more powerful group engages in practices (sometimes subtle and sometimes so engrained it is almost subconscious) which support retention of that advantage (which is often justified/perceived as having been earned or a birthright). The exertion of power and favor inherently suppresses access for other groups. Long standing rivalries and hatred and "us versus them" mentalities then become engrained as resentment grows over generations.

To my mind, conflict is all about privilege; the root cause is wealth, but often it is shibboleths which receive the attribution.

I have a friend, Carla, who conducts research on the potential impact of climate volatility (particularly water availability) on inter-tribal violence in Africa. She has documented how new conflicts are being born between tribes that previously peacefully coexisted, but due to diminishing resources, have begun sparring, and engaging in land grabs on a local level... She has also documented a concomitant increase in of use of derogatory stereotypes in reference to members of other tribes during interview. I think this is a situation that has played out again and again over time and has led to such unbelievably horrible things as castes, apartheid and holy wars, as well as what happened in Ferguson.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

@4KidsAndaDog , this article refers to the facts of a scenario where an individual in essence appears to be falsely blaming lack of access to white privilege as a key reason for not being credited for inventing something he didn't invent. It made me reflect on your recent comments and thought you might find in interesting.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...guy-invented-email-even-though-he-didnt.shtml

Hilary,

Maybe I didn't pay enough attention, but are you saying that in THIS:

...Ayyadurai is ridiculously arguing that the reason no one believes him isn't because he's simply wrong, but because they can't stand to believe that "a dark-skinned immigrant kid, 14 years old," invented email, and that it was done in "one of the poorest cities in the US" rather than at a famous university.

...he was blaming lack of access to White Privilege?

I see a possible (likely?) "playing the race card" approach, as in "you don't believe me because I'm brown and poor...and was back then."

Blaming lack of access to White Privilege would, to me, be more like claiming he COULD HAVE invented it if he had been accepted to an all-White college...or if he HAD NOT BEEN prohibited entry to the parent office or sone such claim.

But I read too fast and often miss things.

'Splain, please?

 

[kirmy]

I

I think that the power to control access to limited resources is at the core of most conflicts. Inevitably one group gains an advantageous position. Then the more powerful group engages in practices (sometimes subtle and sometimes so engrained it is almost subconscious) which support retention of that advantage (which is often justified/perceived as having been earned or a birthright). The exertion of power and favor inherently suppresses access for other groups. Long standing rivalries and hatred and "us versus them" mentalities then become engrained as resentment grows over generations.

To my mind, conflict is all about privilege; the root cause is wealth, but often it is shibboleths which receive the attribution.

I have a friend, Carla, who conducts research on the potential impact of climate volatility (particularly water availability) on inter-tribal violence in Africa. She has documented how new conflicts are being born between tribes that previously peacefully coexisted, but due to diminishing resources, have begun sparring, and engaging in land grabs on a local level... She has also documented a concomitant increase in of use of derogatory stereotypes in reference to members of other tribes during interview. I think this is a situation that has played out again and again over time and has led to such unbelievably horrible things as castes, apartheid and holy wars, as well as what happened in Ferguson.

I think this is a supremely well reasoned answer. I agree with the findings of your anthropologist friends research. We are after all monkeys defending our territory...just hairless with more defined social organisation. If you've ever looked into an Apes eyes you'll know they are cousins. It seems logical and distressing to me that we would be racially protectionist about our resources. There sure as **** are no black men in the Bullingdon club ( though I hear our second in command liked to do coke of black women strippers) sort of like pissing in the corner and chest beating...but I digress. Privilege is indeed about access. It is the ultimate mean girls club and unless you've not been invited to the sleep over then you'll never realise that you're on the inside.

 

[hilary1617]

@Spiky Bugger,

My intent was to convey that it appears that he blames *not being credited* at least in part upon lack of access to white privilege; that had he been a white child with American roots rather than a "dark-skinned immigrant kid", he would have received credit.

It appears that he believes white privilege conveys the type of credibility he believes he has been wrongfully denied. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that attempts to discredit his claims could potentially stem from lack of novelty (one of the basic requirements of a patent), rather than his color/origins (and attempts by others at personal and commercial gain / institutional pride ).

 

[Spiky Bugger]

@Spiky Bugger,

My intent was to convey that it appears that he blames *not being credited* at least in part upon lack of access to white privilege; that had he been a white child with American roots rather than a "dark-skinned immigrant kid", he would have received credit.

It appears that he believes white privilege conveys the type of credibility he believes he has been wrongfully denied. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that attempts to discredit his claims could potentially stem from lack of novelty (one of the basic requirements of a patent), rather than his color/origins (and attempts by others at personal and commercial gain / institutional pride ).

Okay, I see where that is coming from. I still see it as "the Race Card," more than the access issue. But they do overlap.