Re Ferguson...my response...

[JackieOnLine]

I was listening to an interview with a lawyer who lives in a nice neighborhood in Washington DC where the police always want to know "where he is going" since he obviously doesn't belong there. he is a law professor as well and is frequently suspected for driving while black.

this is not a small deal in his life and yet a chunk of this country doesn't seem to understand or believe that this is a problem.

can you imagine walking or driving on your own block and having to worry about the police for no reason? because make no mistake, he is at risk for nothing more than not being white.

people need to be brought up, from childhood, in neighborhoods where there is more than one race. that is the only hope for ending this crap.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

The truth is the divide is just as wide economically as it is racially. One poster mentioned test scores but that opens up a whole other can of worms about cultural bias on standardized tests.

It is interesting when you talk about education as a way to break out of poverty. You have to first know an opportunity exists before you can take advantage of it. My brother is a director of a program in New York City that prepares disadvantaged youth for college. The biggest challenge to the programs success is educating the students that these programs exist. If you do not know there are scholarships you do not apply for them.

The ugly truth of America is simple we have ingrained institutional racism. I am not anti police because I try NEVER to judge a group by the actions of an individual. I am also a realist and as a person of color I have seen my father, brothers, uncles pulled over and asked what they were doing. Why they were in certain neighborhoods. It definitely influences the way you see the police.

White privilege exists. Getting pulled over for "driving while black" is real. The bigger question is how can we fix it? I have never been in an educational environment that had over 5 % African Americans. I became used to being the only African American in class and I have also had the experience on several jobs.

You talk about self segregation I am not sure if that accurately describes what really happens (in my experience). When you are the only African American and you see another African American you tend to form a bond because you think at least on a superficial level you are no longer alone. In college this manifested as the small group of African American students sitting together in the dining hall. We were such a diverse group with only 3 things in common. We went to the same college, we were African American, and we were viewed differently by the population at large. I guess we appeared insular. We were not trying to be exclusionary but perhaps although that was not the intent it may have been the perception.

I know I am rambling a bit but I am finding it challenging to put the emotions this all stirs into words.


MsVee

Our daughter worked for an organization that assisted former gang-bangers and ex-cons and other people in need. A real eye-opener for me was how many of these kids were raised on the street. They had no clue, no idea, no support. The young people our daughter worked with what they lived...and it was closer to the American Nightmare than the American Dream.

The clients were involved in Parenting classes, AlAnon, NarcAnon, anger management, job training, GED classes and going through tattoo removal and more. They didn't have a clue until they were adults.

I was listening to an interview with a lawyer who lives in a nice neighborhood in Washington DC where the police always want to know "where he is going" since he obviously doesn't belong there. he is a law professor as well and is frequently suspected for driving while black.

this is not a small deal in his life and yet a chunk of this country doesn't seem to understand or believe that this is a problem.

can you imagine walking or driving on your own block and having to worry about the police for no reason? because make no mistake, he is at risk for nothing more than not being white.

people need to be brought up, from childhood, in neighborhoods where there is more than one race. that is the only hope for ending this crap.

Jon Stewart said what you did...his way...lol

 

[jillc]

I, like @Elizabeth N. grew up with people similar to me. We had Hutterites on a colony and Native Indians on a reserve, but that was the most diversity I'd seen. In Canada, we have treated our aboriginals badly in the past, and many people continue to discriminate against them today. But I digress.

When I was 10 a black girl, adopted by a white family moved into town. But that was it for me. The town I lived in was comprised of 1,200 people. So my world view was limited.

I always thought I knew what it was like to be discriminated against though. I was the tomboy, fat kid, bullied and made fun of. So I thought I could empathize about this topic.

When I was 17, I was an exchange student in Jamaica. I experienced little to no discrimination. Except for being a glow in the dark white person. And I discovered what it was like to be a minority. But that's it, except for a couple of scary situations with aggressive males that pursued me only because I was white (one very scary situation that I was relieved to survive) - but that was more about the men, not the color.

When I was 24 I moved to the UK and married an ex-soldier that I fell in love with. We lived in an inner city area which had burning cars in it every other night. The kids stole the cars and burned them after to get rid of any fingerprint/other evidence (btw, it was a predominantly white working class/dole class area).

In social situations, numerous times (I lived there for 10 years), there would be discussions of foreigners. How they were taking over etc. When I would mention I was a foreigner (which they knew), they told me I didn't count. What went said or unsaid (depending on how comfortable I felt expressing my opinion) was I didn't count a) Because I was white AND b) Because English was my first language.

I haven't experienced racism in any way that a black or a Native American or a Latino or other immigrants have. I *can* empathize. But I don't think I can fully realize the extent of it because I am verging on albino white (I would also like to think that Canada doesn't have quite as much racism as the US but I also know that is wishful thinking. We don't have the same extent of murder and gun violence).

 

[Terri]

@Diana my heart breaks for Samuel. I hope that all is cleared up before he leaves. He had his choice of several colleges. I haven't seen any of his posts lately I wonder why. I will have to see. He is an impressive young man with an awesome future ahead of him.

 

[hilary1617]

OT a bit, related a bit -- Mostly a rambling rant to follow.

I have an old friend, Danny, who I respect and adore though we don't always see eye to eye. We have some, er, history together. Back in the day, the two of us used to go out drinking together with the likes of Christopher Hitchens so frankly not unexpected that he has extreme views. Once a writer, he's now a full-time academic - in both careers, he has tended to attract controversy the way I attract mosquitos at a campground. He has plenty of flaws (like anyone else!), but he is one of the most interesting conversationalists I have ever met and he has risked his life on many occasions to help others that he doesn't even know. (Most recent example - he traveled to the southern border of Turkey last month to assist Syrian child refugees.)

I remember one late night we went to an IHOP with a friend following a concert. We all ate full meals, but Danny was still hungry. Danny asked our server how much it would cost to get one more pancake. She responded by (jokingly, I think) inquiring whether he was "saving to be Jewish". He calmly responded that her that remark was really offensive and in essence was the equivalent of asking her if she was "waiting tables to be a poor single mom". Needless to say, she complained to her manager that we were making "racist" remarks and we were asked to leave. We did, after I paid the bill and left a generous tip.

He is someone I expect to challenge stereotypes versus perpetuating them, which is why today when he made certain comments on FB, it really got under my craw.

He posted a link to a Guardian article titled, Arizona gun range reviewing policies after nine-year-old kills instructor, along with the following comments, "I find this quintessentially American. Sorry if that sounds cold-hearted, but it just perfectly embodies the perverse idiocy and cultural logic of American life."

Me: Wow. That's a surprising sweeping generalization. It doesn't sound cold-hearted to me, rather verging on xenophobic.

Danny: Xenophobia is a fear of the other. I am American. I'm talking about my own culture, not someone else's.​

Me: That is not your culture. When have you personally been at a shooting range with children? Perhaps supremacist rather than xenophobic. But you understood what I was trying to communicate even if my phrasing was inaccurate. Just surprised to see that comment coming from you.​

Danny: American culture is my culture. There are different sub-cultures in America, to be sure -- but there is also a unitary culture at large, and I am deeply part of it, having grown up here and lived here for 45 years. I understand the psychology intimately. I've known these kinds of folks. I've talked to them. This is an extreme case, but the cultural logic that gave rise to it permeates American life. What's so surprising about it? Gun fanaticism is deeply, deeply ingrained in this culture -- it goes back deep in our history.​

Me: "I'm surprised you, in particular, would generalize about an entire country based on a subculture. Gun fanaticism is not deeply engrained in my American life, nor that of the many American lives to which I've been exposed. I find that sweeping characterizations about populations of people tend to be harmful and expected that you would have seen similar deleterious effects of same, and would avoid making such comments. Thus, the surprise."​

Two of his friends agreed with him.​

Me: My surprise was with more than the characterization of extreme gun fanaticism as quintessential embodiment of American life. On that point, while gun culture is a part of the fabric of America, I don't agree that it can be accurately cast as the essence. Mainly, though, the characterization that primarily took me aback given its authorship was the generalization extending to "perverse idiocy and cultural logic of American life". That is the sort of statement that would draw an outcry (and rightfully so, in my mind), were any number of other nationalities substituted for American in that phrase.
​

Okay, so maybe I am just oversensitive / overthinking /overreacting / self-righteous. That said, I wonder if I am just unrealistic to expect that we will all stop putting ourselves and others into little boxes based on stereotypes. Also, do we have to hate ourselves, openly exhibit "white man's burden"-type self-loathing, if you will, to be sympathetic to the plights of others?

Also, why on earth would anyone place an uzi in the hands of a 9 year old tourist?!

​

 

[Spiky Bugger]

OT a bit, related a bit -- Mostly a rambling rant to follow.

I have an old friend, Danny, who I respect and adore though we don't always see eye to eye. We have some, er, history together. Back in the day, the two of us used to go out drinking together with the likes of Christopher Hitchens so frankly not unexpected that he has extreme views. Once a writer, he's now a full-time academic - in both careers, he has tended to attract controversy the way I attract mosquitos at a campground. He has plenty of flaws (like anyone else!), but he is one of the most interesting conversationalists I have ever met and he has risked his life on many occasions to help others that he doesn't even know. (Most recent example - he traveled to the southern border of Turkey last month to assist Syrian child refugees.)

I remember one late night we went to an IHOP with a friend following a concert. We all ate full meals, but Danny was still hungry. Danny asked our server how much it would cost to get one more pancake. She responded by (jokingly, I think) inquiring whether he was "saving to be Jewish". He calmly responded that her that remark was really offensive and in essence was the equivalent of asking her "waiting tables to be a poor single mom". Needless to say, she complained to her manager that we were making "racist" remarks and we were asked to leave. We did, after I paid the bill and left a generous tip.

He is someone I expect to challenge stereotypes versus perpetuating them, which is why today when he made certain comments on FB, it really got under my craw.

He posted a link to a Guardian article titled, Arizona gun range reviewing policies after nine-year-old kills instructor, along with the following comments, "I find this quintessentially American. Sorry if that sounds cold-hearted, but it just perfectly embodies the perverse idiocy and cultural logic of American life."

Me: Wow. That's a surprising sweeping generalization. It doesn't sound cold-hearted to me, rather verging on xenophobic.

Danny: Xenophobia is a fear of the other. I am American. I'm talking about my own culture, not someone else's.​

Me: That is not your culture. When have you personally been at a shooting range with children? Perhaps supremacist rather than xenophobic. But you understood what I was trying to communicate even if my phrasing was inaccurate. Just surprised to see that comment coming from you.​

Danny: American culture is my culture. There are different sub-cultures in America, to be sure -- but there is also a unitary culture at large, and I am deeply part of it, having grown up here and lived here for 45 years. I understand the psychology intimately. I've known these kinds of folks. I've talked to them. This is an extreme case, but the cultural logic that gave rise to it permeates American life. What's so surprising about it? Gun fanaticism is deeply, deeply ingrained in this culture -- it goes back deep in our history.​

Me: "I'm surprised you, in particular, would generalize about an entire country based on a subculture. Gun fanaticism is not deeply engrained in my American life, nor that of the many American lives to which I've been exposed. I find that sweeping characterizations about populations of people tend to be harmful and expected that you would have seen similar deleterious effects of same, and would avoid making such comments. Thus, the surprise."​

Two of his friends agreed with him.​

Me: My surprise was with more than the characterization of extreme gun fanaticism as quintessential embodiment of American life. On that point, while gun culture is a part of the fabric of America, I don't agree that it can be accurately cast as the essence. Mainly, though, the characterization that primarily took me aback given its authorship was the generalization extending to "perverse idiocy and cultural logic of American life". That is the sort of statement that would draw an outcry (and rightfully so, in my mind), were any number of other nationalities substituted for American in that phrase.
​

Okay, so maybe I am just oversensitive / overthinking /overreacting / self-righteous. That said, I wonder if I am just unrealistic to expect that we will all stop putting ourselves and others into little boxes based on stereotypes. Also, do we have to hate ourselves, openly exhibit "white man's burden"-type self-loathing, if you will, to be sympathetic to the plights of others?

Also, why on earth would anyone place an uzi in the hands of a 9 year old tourist?!

​

Re: He posted a link to a Guardian article titled, Arizona gun range reviewing policies after nine-year-old kills instructor, along with the following comments, "I find this quintessentially American. Sorry if that sounds cold-hearted, but it just perfectly embodies the perverse idiocy and cultural logic of American life."

This IS how we ALL look to the rest of the planet. And to generalize about an entire country based on the actions/actions of the most visible inhabitants is...well...I mean I KNOW that not all Germans living there in the 1940s were Jew haters engaged in genocide...but my mind goes where it goes.

and

Re: Also, why on earth would anyone place an uzi in the hands of a 9 year old tourist?!

Because entitled ******** are still capable of reproduction?

 

[hilary1617]

@Spiky Bugger, I see your point. I guess my main issue is that Danny isn't the rest of the planet. He's American. He's perpetuating stereotypes about his *own* country, which frankly aren't particularly consistent with his personal experience AND while concurrently, as assistant director of a university center for middle eastern studies, he is actively trying to break down stereotypes about the middle east. Inside the U.S., he led a privileged suburban childhood and since then has traveled in highly sophisticated, liberal minded, well-educated circles. Outside of the U.S. he has spent time in conflict zones, countries where citizens have limited rights, countries with high crime and poverty rates, etc. When he was younger, he focused on labor rights and Latin/South American causes (e.g. government oppression of indigenous peoples in Chiapas, workers' rights in Mexico, Colombia, U.S. immigration issues.) In the past decade his focus has shifted to combatting oppression the middle east, mainly in Iran and Syria.

I'm just sad/frustrated that my friends' knee-jerk reaction to an article about one child being handed an uzi is not "wow - what irresponsible parents", but rather in essence " Yeap, all of us 'Muricans are idiotic gun fanatics". Anyway, I'll get over it. Thanks for putting up with my rant!!!!!

 

[Spiky Bugger]

@Spiky Bugger, I see your point. I guess my main issue is that Danny isn't the rest of the planet. He's American. He's perpetuating stereotypes about his *own* country, which frankly aren't particularly consistent with his personal experience AND while concurrently, as assistant director of a university center for middle eastern studies, he is actively trying to break down stereotypes about the middle east. Inside the U.S., he led a privileged suburban childhood and since then has traveled in highly sophisticated, liberal minded, well-educated circles. Outside of the U.S. he has spent time in conflict zones, countries where citizens have limited rights, countries with high crime and poverty rates, etc. When he was younger, he focused on labor rights and Latin/South American causes (e.g. government oppression of indigenous peoples in Chiapas, workers' rights in Mexico, Colombia, U.S. immigration issues.) In the past decade his focus has shifted to combatting oppression the middle east, mainly in Iran and Syria.

I'm just sad/frustrated that my friends' knee-jerk reaction to an article about one child being handed an uzi is not "wow - what irresponsible parents", but rather in essence " Yeap, all of us 'Muricans are idiotic gun fanatics". Anyway, I'll get over it. Thanks for putting up with my rant!!!!!

Danny has joined the ranks of the Irresponsible Generalizers. (I'll probably run into him at one of the the meetings.)

 

[hilary1617]

LOL. I probably should attend also. It's so much easier to see other people's faults than my own.

 

[kirmy]

I'm so ignorant. Do you know how many black people I knew growing up in Australia? One. There were literally no people of Afro-carrib or otherwise in homogenic Brisbane. I was mates with two Aboriginal girls in Uni. They were awesome.

I dated a Tongan dude and a Chinese dude but that was about it. Then I moved to Scotland. Know how many black folk live in Scotland? Feck all. So recently when I was in America I was fascinated by the beauty and the grace of some of the black folk I met. I found myself staring and wanting to stroke the velvety smooth skin on the arm of the BEAUTIFUL man who sold me my turquoise sneakers. Actually I would have settled on stroking anything he offered.....he was divine. I met the husband of one of our glorious community on here and immediately loved him to bits. Wry humour, wit and observation. He is my kind of person (as too is she). I didn't really see him as different from me. It didn't occur to me. But having said that I've been checking out black folks. I just love seeing people different from me...it is fascinating.

I have no idea how to be culturally appropriate around African Americans. I've no history no understanding of what I'm saying or doing that might cause offence. I only know how to treat you as a person. I know how important culture is but I've no way to disseminate this information into my limited white privilege. But I know this...no one is profiling me...no one is watching me when I go into a store. I feel outrage just imagining this.

I get the anger. I agree with the angry. I'm angry thinking about it in my minimal terms of reference. I know this...our capitalist system is designed to keep groups outside of white privilege marginalised. Someone has to flip rich white folks burgers and it sure as **** isn't going to be the children of rich white people. I'm profoundly sad by this. There is enough for all of us. Truly there is but the gulf just gets wider. I expect more of these riots as time passes.

I suppose the answer is to find the similarities, to allow access and to pull each other up. Skin should no be the decider of anyone's fate.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

I'm so ignorant. Do you know how many black people I knew growing up in Australia? One. There were literally no people of Afro-carrib or otherwise in homogenic Brisbane. I was mates with two Aboriginal girls in Uni. They were awesome.

I dated a Tongan dude and a Chinese dude but that was about it. Then I moved to Scotland. Know how many black folk live in Scotland? Feck all. So recently when I was in America I was fascinated by the beauty and the grace of some of the black folk I met. I found myself staring and wanting to stroke the velvety smooth skin on the arm of the BEAUTIFUL man who sold me my turquoise sneakers. Actually I would have settled on stroking anything he offered.....he was divine. I met the husband of one of our glorious community on here and immediately loved him to bits. Wry humour, wit and observation. He is my kind of person (as too is she). I didn't really see him as different from me. It didn't occur to me. But having said that I've been checking out black folks. I just love seeing people different from me...it is fascinating.

I have no idea how to be culturally appropriate around African Americans. I've no history no understanding of what I'm saying or doing that might cause offence. I only know how to treat you as a person. I know how important culture is but I've no way to disseminate this information into my limited white privilege. But I know this...no one is profiling me...no one is watching me when I go into a store. I feel outrage just imagining this.

I get the anger. I agree with the angry. I'm angry thinking about it in my minimal terms of reference. I know this...our capitalist system is designed to keep groups outside of white privilege marginalised. Someone has to flip rich white folks burgers and it sure as **** isn't going to be the children of rich white people. I'm profoundly sad by this. There is enough for all of us. Truly there is but the gulf just gets wider. I expect more of these riots as time passes.

I suppose the answer is to find the similarities, to allow access and to pull each other up. Skin should no be the decider of anyone's fate.

So...you're saying you live in "exclusive" neighborhoods? With "restrictions?"

Now I DO have to come visit. I'm not very brown, but more so in the summer. Maybe next summer. And I'll practice my Spanish.

 

[brooklyngirl]

I'm so ignorant. Do you know how many black people I knew growing up in Australia? One. There were literally no people of Afro-carrib or otherwise in homogenic Brisbane. I was mates with two Aboriginal girls in Uni. They were awesome.

I dated a Tongan dude and a Chinese dude but that was about it. Then I moved to Scotland. Know how many black folk live in Scotland? Feck all. So recently when I was in America I was fascinated by the beauty and the grace of some of the black folk I met. I found myself staring and wanting to stroke the velvety smooth skin on the arm of the BEAUTIFUL man who sold me my turquoise sneakers. Actually I would have settled on stroking anything he offered.....he was divine. I met the husband of one of our glorious community on here and immediately loved him to bits. Wry humour, wit and observation. He is my kind of person (as too is she). I didn't really see him as different from me. It didn't occur to me. But having said that I've been checking out black folks. I just love seeing people different from me...it is fascinating.

I have no idea how to be culturally appropriate around African Americans. I've no history no understanding of what I'm saying or doing that might cause offence. I only know how to treat you as a person. I know how important culture is but I've no way to disseminate this information into my limited white privilege. But I know this...no one is profiling me...no one is watching me when I go into a store. I feel outrage just imagining this.

I get the anger. I agree with the angry. I'm angry thinking about it in my minimal terms of reference. I know this...our capitalist system is designed to keep groups outside of white privilege marginalised. Someone has to flip rich white folks burgers and it sure as **** isn't going to be the children of rich white people. I'm profoundly sad by this. There is enough for all of us. Truly there is but the gulf just gets wider. I expect more of these riots as time passes.

I suppose the answer is to find the similarities, to allow access and to pull each other up. Skin should no be the decider of anyone's fate.

Ok, now I'm feeling ignorant, what is Tongan?

 

[JackieOnLine]

Tonga is an island in the South Pacific.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Ok, now I'm feeling ignorant, what is Tongan?

Like, from Tonga? In Polynesia.

 

[brooklyngirl]

Thanks guys, I don't think I've ever heard of Tonga before today, and I thought I had already met people from every corner of the world!