Re Ferguson...my response...

[hilary1617]

@JackieOnLine, I totally agree that integration is important, but wonder even when the doors are open how society-at-large can get past the issue of self-segregation.

This topic became an issue of intense family debate last week when my cousin's daughter Nicki posted the following comment on FaceBook:

"And five hundred white girls armed with coffee and smartphones descend onto UNF's campus. #spiritweek #recruitment14"​

My cousin/her aunt Lisa commented that she took exception to what Nicki had written and I commented about lack of diversity. Nicki took the conversation to PM. I think what was written there (below) highlights some engrained "traditions" that I think are holding us back...

NICKI: Hello my beautiful relatives! Just to clear things up, it's not an all white sorority, but we're a part of Panhellenic, which is the predominantly white Sorority grouping. Now, there's also the NPHC, a separate faction of sororities and fraternities, also called the divine nine. It is the exclusively black fraction of Greek life. We are not exclusively white, but most people of non-European ethnicities tend to go to the Divine Nine, or the Multi-Cultural Greek groups. It's been that way for hundreds of years, and while the reins have loosened some, tradition still has precedence.
LISA: It sounds racist to me... To call the group out as all white
NICKI: It's not. It's a predominantly white faction. Even our black components joke about maintaining their black identity surrounded by their white sisters.
LISA: Honestly, I'm speechless and incredibly disheartened by that attitude in today's world.... We also aren't chatting about other people or what they do or say... Separation like this perpetuates racism
Call me if you ever want to discuss
HILARY: Hi Nicki, First, can I just say that I count myself lucky to have a cousin once removed as grounded, driven and kind-hearted as you? I'm always amazed by how you exhibit wisdom well beyond your years. Thanks for taking the time to write the above note! Your comment this morning struck a nerve. I personally didn't see it as racist, but rather, both factually-descriptive and sad. Self-segregation on campuses and elsewhere is a reality and certainly not your fault. Studies have shown that people naturally tend to be most comfortable with and seek out others who come from similar backgrounds. That said, I'm sure you know how segregation can perpetuate racism and also limit everyone. There is much to be gained in exposure to different perspectives. How wonderful would it be if your sorority could help break down those barriers? The environment you described presents an exceptional opportunity for improving diversity. Is there any way your house could partner with one of the Divine Nine to promote a new tradition? A small effort could start something amazing. E.g. Could you have a cross-house Big/Littles program or integrated slumber parties? I'm probably preaching to the choir here. After all, one strong-willed, smart young lady probably very much like you was probably behind each of the breaks with ages old-traditions that have led to women to be able to vote and wear pants. Therefore, I challenge you to a multicultural sorority house pillow-fight challenge in lieu of the ice bucket challenge! You have 24 hours.
LISA: Wonderful idea and sentiment Hilary!
NICKI: Please don't get the impression we are so segregated! We actually all support and participate in one another's philanthropy and service events, cheer each other on at Greek week, and will often invite them to participate with us in socials.
But because we belong to different Conferences, there is a certain respect maintained by not crossing subtle boundaries. Think of it in these terms: NCAA and NCAAA teams don't often verse one another in sports. And before the playoffs, you don't see an SEC team go up against an ACC team. Not until it's the time, or a special occasion calls for it. There's no offense taken, they will support one another and attend each other's games for fun, but like draws to like. I don't feel offended by being excluded from their step crew programs and rush process. They have traditions I could never understand, and we do as well. But I respect their dance competitions, and enjoy bopping along, and they don't laugh at my attempts to twerk! Lol.​

 

[Barb1]

I have tried to read everyone’s view point on this and I still believe what Jonathan Gentry said is correct. Everyone in this country is offered the same opportunity to get grants to further their education. All of those people in Ferguson have the right to vote. If the politicians and the police force is not what you want and as the majority (about 65%) of the people are black then why haven’t they voted and changed it.

As for as Michael Brown I agree with MsVee that it is a horrible tragedy!! I feel horrible for his family and hope that something good does come from the loss of their son. I just don’t agree with the violence that came from the rioting.

I did ask though that if anyone had heard the version of the officer’s side of what happened. I ask this because I didn’t hear it on any news broadcast? If you did hear it then what did you hear? Did anyone hear the recording of the of the two black men talking where the one black man is telling the other that Michael turned and starting running at the officer? This was right after it happened. Did anyone hear the one I printed? What if it did happen that way?

Like I have said I am just curious because I didn’t hear this on the news and I am curious to see if any of you did and if you did why do you still feel the officer is wrong?

I am not saying it is true. Just something I heard and read that was more local but that I have never heard it reported nationally.

I know I don’t want to believe that a police officer anywhere in the U.S. could kill someone deliberately when someone was trying to surrender with their hands raised in surrender.


@Spiky Bugger You said:
But the Chief of the Ferguson PD is an *******, engaging in very sketchy techniques meant to justify the shooting. If it WAS justifiable, and it might have been, those "clever" techniques would not have been necessary. But this PD is jury tampering...and that makes them very suspect.

I agree about the chief but how is the PD able to do jury tampering?

 

[Spiky Bugger]

@Barb1
The Chief is trying to influence (tamper with) the jury pool with negative, but unrelated, information about Brown. And the leaks from "sources close" to PD administration, the ones about the "broken eye socket" that didn't exist, are doing the same thing. Through those press releases and other leaks they have ALREADY told all of us that Brown was not a good kid, implying that he got what he deserved.

However, everyone in this country does not have the same opportunity to get an education. Not even close. Before you even get to applying for grants, you have to pass tests and get accepted to college. Before you get THAT far, you have to be somewhere where the classes you need to get where you want to go are even offered.

My very White husband, from Redneck City, Indiana, graduated in a class of about 40 kids. My class, in the big city, had about 700 kids. We had far more opportunities to take classes--in the trades or college prep--than he and his classmates did. It isn't JUST a matter of race...it is a matter of economics as well. And poor folks just didn't have schools that...back then...taught auto shop, print shop, radio shop, keypunch (it WAS a while ago), physics, advanced chemistry...the kinds of classes that allowed my sister to spend the last semester of her senior year in the 4-4 Plan, four hours of school and four hours of a real job (at Sears), making minimum wage but getting experience before she even finished HS. Where my husband went to school, his only path out of grinding poverty was the Army. (Thus explaining why there are more poor kids in the Army.). Most poor schools don't even have the clubs and activities that win scholarships to the extent that rich schools do. You cannot get a swimming scholarship if your HS cannot afford a pool.

Here's a test...if you think that everyone gets the same chance, would you send your kids or grandkids to school in a really poor school district...with students of any race? If you think everyone gets the same chance, would you like the chance to take your education and work history and apply for a job in a Black body? Because I think a lot of people of color would like to take THEIR work history and education and apply in a White body...you know, to be judged the way "most of us" are judged.

As far as Gentry is concerned, he's full of ****. Let's teach all Black men to say, "Yes, Massa," or they deserve to get shot. Peaceful protests are okay. Riots are not. But here's a peek into why they happen. Here's why some Black people think they ARE being pulled over for Driving While Black. The cops were looking for a beige or tan Toyota with four Black men in it. But this Black woman, in a red Nissan, with four little kids in it was good enough. I mean, she WAS Black. (And the cops lied and said her license plate matched the suspect vehicle.) Watch to see what this six-year-old boy had to learn...in America...in 2014:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...ll-over-car-of-four-children-with-guns-drawn/

 

[Spiky Bugger]

@4KidsAndaDog You are not butting in...lol

Just waking up, and we have to disagree on our relative "facts," but...
It seems to me that anyone, regardless of color, ought to stop when a police officer says to. If Brown DID stop immediately when told, then the cop is in the wrong and I hope he is punished and never works as a cop again.

Right, because the appropriate punishment for a street execution is incarceration. The cop shouldn't work anywhere outside his inmate job, for a long time.

And

If Brown did not stop when told to, or if he assaulted the officer, threatened or rushed at him at any point in time, then Brown was in the wrong. Did he deserve to die depends on your perspective, but surely we can all agree that not following the directions of a police officer or threatening them is an unwise and potentially deadly move.

But it is far more potentially deadly for people of color.


And people who don't understand or accept that there is such a thing as White Privilege will never really understand the problem. This classic was the cause of more tears than I had ever seen in a classroom...
http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

ETA:

Afterthought about your success....you should be proud. You were likely quite different from most of your classmates and you had (have) what it takes to do it alone. I wasn't DIScouraged as much as it just wasn't part of the list of options my parents knew to offer.

Otoh, when you got to college, people did not assume, just by glancing at you, that you came from disadvantage, that you got in via special criteria, or that you didn't really belong there.

I didn't MAX the SATs, but my scores (test taken 17 years after my last visit to a classroom) were close enough to 1400 (old scale) that I should not have been asked, repeatedly, if I was part of "a program." But my last name was such that I was often asked. Sigh...assumptions!

 

[k9ophile]

Regarding your attachment on white privilege... #10

Many years ago, I was in a bookstore. I went to pay and was behind a black woman who was asked for all kinds of identification to write her check. She pays and it's my turn. I had already dug out all the kinds of identification that she was asked for. I was told I didn't need it. The women who went before me was dressed in business attire; I was in jeans. My purchase total was at least twice what hers was. I'm as WASP appearing as the come. It didn't take me very long to figure out what was going on. I'm sorry that I didn't speak up or walk out leaving my purchases on the counter. I do feel good about never going back to that store based on that incident. At least now I know what to do when it happens again.

 

[Elizabeth N.]

Ramble alert (again)....

I grew up oblivious to White Privilege, since those parts of Montana that were not adjacent to reservations considered ethnic diversity as something that came from having Scandinavian as opposed to Irish as opposed to German ancestors. We had one TV channel until I was ten or so, when we got a second channel.

From rural Montana, I went to Germany, which is where I first encountered outright racism, in the form of bias against "guest workers," who were mostly Turkish back then. I had some bad experiences that confirmed some of the then-popular biases against "those disgusting Turkish men." It was tough to find my way around those feelings and start to see "those people" as individuals and not judge "them."

What made the difference? Acquiring Turkish, Armenian, Iranian and Iraqi Kurdish neighbors and discovering more about how they lived. Finding out they were just people, individuals, families, communities of their own; that they needed to learn more about the American and German cultures in which they lived, just like we needed to do the same for/about them.

We connected, as people often do, over food. I shopped in their stores and stands, went YUMYUMYUM over what I found, and was honored when they presented me with delicacies from their own kitchens. I reciprocated by bringing goodies of my own making. While I would not characterize any of these relationships as friendships, I became their NEIGHBOR.....And once that happened, I never had to worry again about being oddly approached by some darkhaired, dark-eyed guy on the street.

We *could* go on at length about how wrong various behaviors are. "Those men" should not have felt like some random blonde, big ****ed young woman was approachable as if she were a prostitute....But they were acting on what their media and cultural biases had taught them. It took personal contact and relationship building to make changes.

When I married into the Army, the culture shock was worse than when I went from rural Montana to Germany. Not only did I enter the military culture, I encountered a rainbow of diversity for the first time in my life.....AND I got connected to a subculture in a foreign land, a subculture that was still viewed by many as an occupying force. Oh, AND I went from a surname that was as Germanic as they come (even more so than Niederer, which is an ancestral family name but not my real name) to one that is as Jewish as Levy or Goldblatt.

I did not adapt well to the Army subculture and am damned glad we're done with all that. I love Tricare though .

When we moved to NJ, that was my first time in a part of the USA that is truly diverse. As I've said before, it's one of the few things I really love about the place. And yet.....there's still so much self-segregation. It bothers me. Confrontational bitch that I am *g*, I try to purposely cross those boundaries. It's easy enough to do physically, but damned hard to do on the inside.

That brings me kinda sorta to the point of the ramble, that the biggest barriers to change are internal. The whole country, maybe the whole world, is talking about what we SEE. It's easy to externalize the problems and even easier to pontificate about fixes, or the impossibility of fixes.

It's my experience that we create the most change in the context of relationships. That's something that we can ALL do. Take down the boundaries ourselves.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Regarding your attachment on white privilege... #10

Many years ago, I was in a bookstore. I went to pay and was behind a black woman who was asked for all kinds of identification to write her check. She pays and it's my turn. I had already dug out all the kinds of identification that she was asked for. I was told I didn't need it. The women who went before me was dressed in business attire; I was in jeans. My purchase total was at least twice what hers was. I'm as WASP appearing as the come. It didn't take me very long to figure out what was going on. I'm sorry that I didn't speak up or walk out leaving my purchases on the counter. I do feel good about never going back to that store based on that incident. At least now I know what to do when it happens again.

I had some friends who were looking for a place to live. Landlord would not quote the price until she "interviewed" prospective tenants. Let's make a list of all the things the landlord could know for sure upon just meeting prospective tensnts. Right.

 

[k9ophile]

I had some friends who were looking for a place to live. Landlord would not quote the price until she "interviewed" prospective tenants. Let's make a list of all the things the landlord could know for sure upon just meeting prospective tensnts. Right.

And the list goes on and on. Like the time we traveled to FL and stayed in a motel for much less than the price posted on the door. The owner said it was our white discount. Not exactly in those words, but I think you can imagine what he really said.

Unlike EN I did not grow up oblivious to white privilege. It was drummed into my head constantly that as a WASP, I was inherently better than others. It's fair to say that my father and his brothers were wrong about a lot of things. Fortunately, with effort and practice those lessons can be unlearned.

 

[Elizabeth N.]

Let me be clear: When I say I was oblivious, I mean the subject just never came up because of the homogeneity of the population. Once I got out of there, I discovered it in a hurry....and was puzzled.

 

[k9ophile]

Let me be clear: When I say I was oblivious, I mean the subject just never came up because of the homogeneity of the population. Once I got out of there, I discovered it in a hurry....and was puzzled.

My experience was similar as far as a pretty homogeneous community. I guess to have an avenue to vent their fear, many people in my family railed against the Catholics and Jews. My uncle moved from Alabama in the mid-60's. That era of race riots provided a platform for my father et.al to pontificate. In addition to religious and race/ethnic issues, there were also the social such as a hatred of those who smoked, drank, had long hair, bell bottom pants, etc. The only people of any color were in abstract. My point, more or less, was that one did not question authority or the status quo until it was disturbed. That is not a bad thing if it results in growth.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

My experience was similar as far as a pretty homogeneous community. I guess to have an avenue to vent their fear, many people in my family railed against the Catholics and Jews. My uncle moved from Alabama in the mid-60's. That era of race riots provided a platform for my father et.al to pontificate. In addition to religious and race/ethnic issues, there were also the social such as a hatred of those who smoked, drank, had long hair, bell bottom pants, etc. The only people of any color were in abstract. My point, more or less, was that one did not question authority or the status quo until it was disturbed. That is not a bad thing if it results in growth.

@k9ophile Overt racism aside, I think the real problem with privilege is that so very many people who have it, don't realize that they do...even when the evidence is right in front of them. YOU noticed with the purchase you were making. But usually, people only notice when they see that OTHERS have perqs that we don't.

(Back in the day when people occasionally cashed paychecks at grocery stores, my coworker friend and I went to a grocery store to do just that. She had already cashed her check. I was still shopping but eventually went to the courtesy desk. They wanted my thumbprint because they required thumbprints to cash welfare checks. Hello? It says right on MY government check "Payroll Warrant."

Er...uh..oh.

I asked my friend if SHE had needed to be thumbprinted. No. But then, she was not an olive-skinner brunette with a surname that ended in a vowel!

I may have told them they had a lot of ******* groceries to put away...and I never shopped there again.

But before that, I guess people didn't assume I was cashing welfare checks. Maybe I was passing and didn't even know it. After that, I noticed a pattern.)

And then when MAYBE people do start to get it, they get defensive because they think they are being BLAMED for something, or that they need to give away some of their perqs.

Again, the article was about White Privilege...but there have been articles on Male Privilege...and what about that kid who was just given rehab instead of jail because he "suffered" from being too rich?! We should all suffer that way!

 

[MsVee]

The truth is the divide is just as wide economically as it is racially. One poster mentioned test scores but that opens up a whole other can of worms about cultural bias on standardized tests.

It is interesting when you talk about education as a way to break out of poverty. You have to first know an opportunity exists before you can take advantage of it. My brother is a director of a program in New York City that prepares disadvantaged youth for college. The biggest challenge to the programs success is educating the students that these programs exist. If you do not know there are scholarships you do not apply for them.

The ugly truth of America is simple we have ingrained institutional racism. I am not anti police because I try NEVER to judge a group by the actions of an individual. I am also a realist and as a person of color I have seen my father, brothers, uncles pulled over and asked what they were doing. Why they were in certain neighborhoods. It definitely influences the way you see the police.

White privilege exists. Getting pulled over for "driving while black" is real. The bigger question is how can we fix it? I have never been in an educational environment that had over 5 % African Americans. I became used to being the only African American in class and I have also had the experience on several jobs.

You talk about self segregation I am not sure if that accurately describes what really happens (in my experience). When you are the only African American and you see another African American you tend to form a bond because you think at least on a superficial level you are no longer alone. In college this manifested as the small group of African American students sitting together in the dining hall. We were such a diverse group with only 3 things in common. We went to the same college, we were African American, and we were viewed differently by the population at large. I guess we appeared insular. We were not trying to be exclusionary but perhaps although that was not the intent it may have been the perception.

I know I am rambling a bit but I am finding it challenging to put the emotions this all stirs into words.


MsVee

 

[Elizabeth N.]

The truth is the divide is just as wide economically as it is racially. One poster mentioned test scores but that opens up a whole other can of worms about cultural bias on standardized tests.

Oh my YES....Another thing about which I was utterly clueless until I got around people who were "other" (than me)!

It is interesting when you talk about education as a way to break out of poverty. You have to first know an opportunity exists before you can take advantage of it. My brother is a director of a program in New York City that prepares disadvantaged youth for college. The biggest challenge to the programs success is educating the students that these programs exist. If you do not know there are scholarships you do not apply for them.

Last semester I started tutoring students on my campus who are there through the TRIO program. Talk about an education for me....So many things I take for granted were totally new to these youngsters when they arrived at college, from simple life things, to how to navigate campus programs, to....OMG so many things. Mind boggling in the extreme. Until I heard some of these youngsters' stories, I could not have begun to imagine what privilege I have enjoyed from earliest childhood onward, starting with the availability of two parents, to a home full of books, to the basic value given to education.....Truly stunning, and I thought I was pretty well informed about real life in the USA.

White privilege exists. Getting pulled over for "driving while black" is real.

Imagine how my mouth fell open to my chest when one of my classmates, in a grad school theology class (I was there as an undergrad by a special arrangement, she was a grad student), told us she'd been pulled over in the neighboring township, minimally across city/township lines, MULTIPLE times for what amounted to "driving while black," or driving too nice of a car for a black woman driving alone. WOWZERS.

The bigger question is how can we fix it?

It seems the only thing that improves ANYTHING is the relationships, KWIM? I have zero clue about what could work for real at a "higher" level :-/

I have never been in an educational environment that had over 5 % African Americans.

My institution, as a whole, is about 40% African American. My classes have varied a lot. Gen ed courses tended to reflect that distribution, but the majors seem to have a lot more variation.

You talk about self segregation I am not sure if that accurately describes what really happens (in my experience). When you are the only African American and you see another African American you tend to form a bond because you think at least on a superficial level you are no longer alone.

I see this with pretty much every outwardly observable ethnic and cultural "difference" where I live, and the white folks are just as "guilty." Sometimes there are other observable connectors, such as military membership (lots of military people where I live), but other times, not so much.

 

[k9ophile]

When you are the only African American and you see another African American you tend to form a bond because you think at least on a superficial level you are no longer alone.

That's true when one is a woman in the military. Thank God the friendship between a jet engine mechanic and radar specialist passed the superficial level into a long lasting friendship.
It's very delightful when both races can learn from each other. I had a roommate who was black and had the cutest wigs. She was always offering to share them; I always politely declined. One day she came right out and said, "Aren't my wigs good enough for you." I replied, "Well, lets put it this way. I'd look as bad in your wigs as you would in my blond ones." Other things we shared weren't so amusing. Racism and sexism was rampant in the military in the early 70's despite the efforts of the government to paint a rosy picture that we were all on happy group of loyal patriots. Yeah, you can whistle blow, but just Google "tail hook scandal". She lasted longer than I thought she would.

Also, I was surprised to learn about the hierarchy in hospitals. I thought I'd get along with the nurses better than I did. I was going on the assumption that the mostly white doctors treated us all as inferiors and that would be our bonding point. I was wrong. Most of them do not have a Bachelor's degree yet they think they are better than me with mine. Yes, I can be an education snob and dislike nurses as a whole. Some take their mistreatment as a right to abuse others; others use it to bond. While I admit nursing demands talents, ain't nobody in that place that isn't worthy of respect. I appreciate that I don't have to empty my trash or mop the floor in my office.

I also appreciate that once barriers are broken, we can get along. But, damn, some of them are so hard to imagine them being broken on a large scale. I won't give up my hope that they do, but given human nature, we'll always find ways to be inclusive or exclusive. Shall we go over to OH and start a good old fashioned surgery war? (Go DS!)

 

[DianaCox]

I don't know if this will affect any of you, but it drives the point home for me. Do you know Samuel Emmah, the 17 year old (he'll be 18 this month) pre-DSer from Atlanta, who is on his way to Darmouth, FULL-BOAT scholarship, Gates Millennium Scholar? He posted this yesterday:

Samuel Emmah
16 hours ago · Edited
It is so sad that in America, I'm only 17 years old and have to fear for my own life and me potentially being the next Mike Brown when the police are accusing me of "suspicious activity" two days before I leave for college rather than me feeling safe and at ease.