Re Ferguson...my response...

[Spiky Bugger]

@kirmy -- now, let's don't go making assumptions about white kids not flipping burgers. Mine have.
Gosh I really do lose patience with all these assumptions and broad generalizations being made about white privilege and how white people supposedly behave and what white people supposedly think and do.

They are not assumptions and broad generalizations. You..and your kids...must be the exceptions that prove the rule. You may not be "typical" White folks. But enough people are. And White people have privilege that people of color do not. One way we know this is that so few people of color speak out against the notion. It's almost always White people who INSIST that they don't have an advantage. It is as difficult to accept as it is to hear multimillion dollar CEOs claim that their staff is happy and living well on minimum wage. It would be more believable coming from the staff.

White privilege does exist...it just takes people varying amounts of time and certain specific life experiences to notice it. If, for example, you end up with six grandchildren and one of them is Black, then it might be easier to see.

I don't doubt that you more than rose above your background and suffered some class-related prejudice along the way...maybe even substantial amounts of it. But it could have been worse...you could have been Black, too. In the minds of too many people, White folks clean-up well enough that Eliza Doolittle can pass for a dutchess. But that role went to people like Julie Andrews and Audrey Hepburn. I'm still waiting for color to NOT be a factor to the point that Audra Mc Donald can be cast in that role.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Not to be argumentative, but when Julie was cast in My Fair Lady its was still the 60's and you will get no disagreement from me that casting was definitely not color blind in the 60's. But hey, a lot was different then, so lets not bring up a 50+ year old movie to try to prove a point about modern day culture. Also, not to parse things too finely, but the Pygmalion story is a fairy tale, an escapist fantasy -- a poor, uneducated girl of any color can't be mistaken for a duchess with a few weeks of vocal training and a bath. Anyhow, I digress -- Since that movie was cast in the 60s we as a culture have come a long way towards equality -- people of color (not just black) have been cast in "traditionally white" roles for decades in theatre, film and tv. Cinderella is the whitey-est white-white girl there is and I'm certain I have seen Cinderellas of most hues and in big budget Broadway, Hollywood and TV productions, not just local theatre.

I think I have already explained that I am not exactly all-white myself. I have immediate relatives (albeit not grandchildren since I have none of those yet) who are black, Latino, Asian, Philopino, Aboriginal and a whole lotta mixed. Whatever class-related, race-related, size-related, gender-related, and education-related prejudice I experienced in the past and still experience (which there was some of each of these, of course. I mean come on -- this is the actual world we live in, not some finely-calibrated equality utopia) I don't dwell upon it, stew over slights made toward me over any of that, or blame it (or indeed, other people in general) for my lack of accomplishments. If anything, people prejudging me just made me work that little bit harder and dig in my heels a little bit deeper to prove them wrong.

I get what you're saying. A cousin, who is a judge, and I were joking around about if failure was permitted in our family. He said, "Sure it is...you just can't blame it on being Mexican. You have to say, 'Well, see, I was drunk at the time,' or some other excuse that includes YOUR contribution to the bad situation."

BUT...as a judge, he sees kids of color who never had a chance. And we all see that good attorneys buy wealthy kids defense arguments that involve, "He couldn't help it...he was just too rich to know how to behave." And currently, too many states have a law that essentially says, "If you have a fear...no matter how racist, how unreasonable, how unfounded...of people of a given race, you can shoot them dead because you are in fear for your life." I do harbor a fear of uneducated white ******** in white sheets with rebel flags and shotgun racks in their pick up trucks and 4xs but I can't see my getting away with offing one of them even if I AM afraid. Yet Black kids lie dead in the street or on front porches with FEW of the shooters having any better reason to have killed them and almost none of them having to deal with the consequences of their actions. That right there....that's White Privilege.

(My husband wants me to ADD that not ALL Whites benefit from White Privilege. But no Blacks--no matter how Republican, how wealthy, how powerful, how Christian, how anti-Obama they claim to be--EVER benefit from it.)

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Oh...Audrey and Julie...yes...decades ago. But, when you run out of things to do, look at ALL of the major productions of My Fair Lady...on Broadway, in Sydney, in London...wikipedia has them all listed through this year. ALL Elizas are Anglo. Most blonde, right up through the 2013-14 productions. Some things never change. (Although maybe there are versions in other countries that have most main characters of a non-White race. But in the US, England and Australia...it's all white.)

 

[DianaCox]

Ok, now I'm feeling ignorant, what is Tongan?

They are very handsome, sizable folks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Tongan_players_of_American_football

 

[Elizabeth N.]

4K, you look every bit as white as I do--and I am just about as white as an American whose first European ancestors landed here in 1632 can be, meaning there's probably a Native in my bloodline somewhere, but a hell of a long time ago.

Just because you and I have flipped hamburgers does NOT mean the generalization is not accurate. It is, and the data back it up.

 

[kirmy]

So...you're saying you live in "exclusive" neighborhoods? With "restrictions?"

Now I DO have to come visit. I'm not very brown, but more so in the summer. Maybe next summer. And I'll practice my Spanish.

Exclusive....I'm from poor white Australian trash! There just wasn't many people of colour anywhere. Australia is faaaaaar away!

Anyway we are in Scotland...even black people are white here..maybe blue.

 

[kirmy]

I do feel I'm white and privileged. I've never been racially profiled. I resent that!

 

[kirmy]

THAT WAS A JOKE....ayeee caps lock attack.

 

[kirmy]

Also I slung tacos and worked minimum wage from the age of 14. I don't now though.....

 

[hilary1617]

I flipped burgers, if working at McDonalds counts, though I was mainly on register. I've been working since the day I qualified for a work permit at age 14. First job was bell hop at a Marriott.

 

[southernlady]

My first job was "flipping burgers" at a Krystal at 17. I spent a LARGE number of years in Fast Food service both as hourly and management staff. Hourly may not pay much but you work your hours and go home. If I had done a Per Hour rate as management, I would have made half what the hourly employees pulled in. Fast food is notorious for abusing management to cover costs cause they are "management" and the overtime after 40 hours rule didn't apply to management on salary.

 

[kirmy]

How did you get out of earning minimum wage?

 

[brooklyngirl]

@Elizabeth N. you're right, I do look white (except my lips -- I love my super full lips and they are full-on black girl haha -- I mourn that my girls didn't get them) but not as fair as you see in the out of focus, overexposed avatar I posted on this site. And I purposely stay out of the sun because I hate to be hot. But if you saw my genetic material, my family tree, or even a family reunion pic of my immediate relatives you'd see that I represent the fair side of the spectrum with equal counter balance to me on the dark skinned side of the continuum and all the variations of skin, eye, nose, and bone structure shape in between.

And I did not flip hamburgers -- actually I got up at 4am and made biscuits at the Dairy Queen before school in high school. We were poor and this is how I got free breakfast every day and some spending money to buy lunch (so I could not have to eat fish 3 meals a day for reals, haha) and money for school expenses and for my mom to permanently "borrow" to cover monthly bills when she ran short. But the comment was that rich white parents would never allow their kids to flip hamburgers or words to that effect. I DO allow my white kids to flip burgers; I happen to think any honest work is honorable and none of my kids had better think they are too high and mighty to work at whatever job they can get. As an uneducated teenager with minimal work experience they ought be grateful to get any entry level job and minimum wage is pretty generous given that they have no work skills and are doing a job anyone of even limited cognitive ability can do with 10 minutes instruction. .

Furthermore, no matter how humble or exalted the job I have taught them to ONLY be proud of their work IF they do it to the very best of their ability. There's no shame in flipping hamburgers if you are the best damn hamburger flipper, ever. OTOH, I will be shamed if one of my kids turns out to be a McKinsey consultant who half-***** their job.

Besides, the fact that mine have grown up privileged is NO guarantee that they will remain thus -- if they want to maintain this lifestyle they will need to work for it (and experience a good chunk of luck as well) and if god forbid an injury is suffered or a grandchild is severely special needs or any one of 1,000,000 other expensive and time and energy-draining calamities that can easily occur at any second to any of us ---- then I feel like my kids need to know these kinds of jobs are out there and no matter what, if you work hard enough, you can take care of yourself. Even if you are paycheck to paycheck, as long as you are working, doing your best and working as hard as you can, and behaving honorably then there is hope for a better tomorrow AND no shame in a very modest lifestyle; in my eyes you are very proud making.

Words like "Never" and "Always" coupled with broad generalizations regarding social-economic, education; orientation, or racial status really irk me to NO end. Its thinking like that which legitimizes blaming "the other" for ones own mistakes and missed opportunities and also makes it far too easy to give up trying (the whole world is against me, I will never succeed so I may as well stop trying to do my best --- I call that ********) and engage exclusionist behavior (the "other" is to blame for my lack of success so I am going to blame the "other" and work to rally people like me to hate "the other" too. Then together we can work to tear "the other" down).

I have never said white privilege does not exist; I only question the notion that because of WP non-white people de facto can not succeed because all the advantages are not handed to them, thus, WP is to blame for their lack of success. Esp in this day and age, disadvantaged people have infinite programs specifically designed to provide resources and educational opportunities to even the playing field IF the disadvantaged person is willing to put in the sweat equity.

IMHO if a person of any color is willing to put in the back breaking, mind numbing, and downright boring work, give 120% every single day whether they "feel like it" or not, sacrifice short term gratification for long term goals, and stop blaming others (whoever -- teachers, "the man", corporate greed, men, the government, muslims, immigrants, whatever) then whatever the advantages there are to perceived WP will become mitigated if not neutralized. Ive seen it, I am it, and I do believe America, flawed though we are, is one of the few places in the world where this is true.

I think you are missing a key difference, but probably because you were lucky/smart enough to overcome it- most people that are raised by people who don't care about working hard or getting an education don't KNOW enough to work for it. I think your story is amazing, that you were able to come from an unfortunate background, with parents that didn't value hard work or education, but you somehow knew that life could (or should) be different. That's not the case for most people that grow up that way. Too many kids that may qualify for special programs or grants (etc.) are the ones who have crappy role models who never showed them what doors can open if you persevere and work hard. Now, of course, that's not to say that all people in lower socio-economic groups are like that, but the percentage is much higher. What do you think it was that made you see a different path than the one your parents had in mind for you?

 

[brooklyngirl]

I don't believe that white people are the cause of all the misfortune in the world, but there's centuries, or even millennia, of discrimination and misinformation against all people of color, that's only really being chipped away at now, and not even by everyone yet. I'm a sufferer of "white guilt". I don't believe it's my responsibility to make up for things that my forefathers may or may not have done, but I do think it's my responsibility to help open the minds of others as well as future generations, so eventually we can all be equal. I have been accused of being too liberal, but that's a label I'll gladly accept

 

[Elizabeth N.]

Racism is definitely not a "whites against others" issue. Ask the Kurds, Albanians.....any of who knows how many tribal groups in various African nations....

Ask Irish Catholics in the Northeast, or Italians in Philadelphia (and other locations), or Germans in a lot of Midwestern and Western places. The Catholic-Protestant divide was all but insurmountable sixty years ago--anybody remember what a BIG DEAL it was to elect a Catholic President? (I don't, but my parents sure talked about it--I also don't remember whether it mattered to them.)