police shoot and kill 12 year old boy

[Charris]

Cleveland Will Release Video in Police Shooting of Boy, 12

Cleveland Police Shoot 12-Year-Old Holding BB Gun

NBC NEWS CHANNEL Cleveland on Wednesday will release surveillance video showing the police shooting of a 12-year-old boy who was killed after allegedly reaching for what turned out to be a pellet gun, authorities announced at a community meeting Tuesday.The family of Tamir Rice, who was shot by police Saturday and died Sunday, had earlier demanded that the video be released. Police initially refused, caling the recording evidence in an investigation. But officials at Tuesday night’s meeting reversed course and announced they will release the footage at 1 p.m., NBC station WKYC reported.Tamir Rice was shot in the torso at the Cudell Recreation Center in Cleveland at 3:30 p.m. Saturday after police said he allegedly refused to raise his hands and reached for what looked like a handgun tucked in his waistband, and he died the next day. The item turned out to be a pellet gun that police said had its orange safety indicator removed and looked like a real firearm. Police say the boy never pointed the gun at the officers or threatened to shoot them. The two police officers involved have been placed on paid leave and an investigation is underway.Earlier Tuesday, Tamir Rice’s parents, Samaria Rice and Leonard Warner, asked that the video be released, saying in a statement that as they grieve privately, "we feel the actions of the patrol officer who took our son’s life must be made public." Surveillance video captured shooting, and Deputy Police Chief Edward Tomba told reporters Monday that the video was "very clear" about what happened.The boy’s parents say that while the family is "devastated," they also want calm. "Though the hurt our family feels is too painful for words to describe, we still have faith in the justice system," the parents said. "We thank the community for their prayers, encouragement and support. It has helped us during this difficult time."

IN-DEPTH

Grand Jury Will Hear Case of Tamir Rice, 12-Year-Old Killed by CopTamir Rice Shooting by Cleveland Police Under InvestigationCops Kill Boy, 12, Carrying 'Airsoft' Toy Gun in Cleveland

SOCIAL

— Erik Ortiz and Phil Helsel

First published November 25th 2014, 1:11 pm

 

[Spiky Bugger]

I am still mourning the recent death of a LEO I knew as an infant...and whose daddy was a classmate in kindergarten. And, again, I come from a cop family.

That said, there is a pattern as to which of us can carry a weapon in this country and survive that adventure.

 

[DianaCox]

There is no reason for the VAST majority of civilians who walk around with guns or things which look like guns in their hands - including ANY children - to do so. If fewer people - including a high percentage of people who have no GOOD reason to have them - were armed, I assume that LEOs would be less likely to expect to be shot and to feel threatened. And if EVERY civilian who encountered a LEO was cooperative, they also would be far less likely to be shot.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

There is no reason for the VAST majority of civilians who walk around with guns or things which look like guns in their hands - including ANY children - to do so. If fewer people - including a high percentage of people who have no GOOD reason to have them - were armed, I assume that LEOs would be less likely to expect to be shot and to feel threatened. And if EVERY civilian who encountered a LEO was cooperative, they also would be far less likely to be shot.

Agreed, but...

As long as we have the laws we have, and as long as people feel that violence is their "protection" against change, and as long as some people are afraid of other people based on skin color, and as long as we--or our loved ones--occasionally get stupid and/or drunk and/or loaded and just do stupid **** because we/they are mad at someone or feeling oppressed or whatever, then citizens of this country will continue to be shot and killed by their own government for picking up a weapon that is for sale inside a store and carrying it around or shoplifting or jaywalking or not showing enough respect to cops like Wilson who felt that he was working in a bad community that everyone hated.

On the spot execution for those "crimes" is a bit severe in the civilized parts of the world.

 

[DianaCox]

Define "civilized." Brown's behavior (irrespective of whether or not Wilson knew about it before the encounter) in the convenience store is not what I would call "civilized," nor was his response to the encounter with Wilson.

citizens of this country will continue to be shot and killed by their own government for picking up a weapon that is for sale inside a store and carrying it around or shoplifting or jaywalking or not showing enough respect to cops

I guess I have what I **hope** is a colorblind attitude about this statement, which is that essentially NO CIVILIAN should be carrying a weapon around, period, and if they are doing so in a place that is not a gun range or using a long gun to legally hunt in a designated hunting area, and does not drop the weapon immediately when ordered to do so by a LEO, the LEO should be entitled to shoot them. And that when a cop - who IS legally and rightfully carrying a gun, and who has the legal authority to stop and detain a citizen (under broad but legally limited circumstances) stays to STOP, there should be essentially no excuse for not doing so. Given the current prevalence of criminals being armed, anyone who does not stop must be assumed to be armed, and resistance should be seen as indicating a high likelihood that the person resisting is armed and likely to attempt to harm the LEO.

Brown didn't get shot for "not showing enough respect" - he was resisting arrest.

I would hope that a LEO would have more in his quiver than just shooting an uncooperative civilian, but the other side of the social contract is for the civilian to not be uncooperative. While I do not doubt that both of my (white) kids are more likely to survive an encounter with a LEO than if they were brown or black, being cooperative with the orders of a LEO is the first line of defense, and I have drilled it into their heads to do so, including leaving their hands on the top of the wheel if they are pulled over, and not doing ANYTHING until the LEO tells them to do it, including reaching into the glove box for the registration, or into their pockets or purse for their license. I've also told them that EVERY LEO is to be presumed to be on edge on his or her side of the encounter, and to respect that.

As an aside - I think - I wonder what the actual death rate from guns was in "the old west," where just about everyone was armed, and what percentage was from civilians shooting each other vs. being shot by the sheriff. Are we more or less civilized now, particularly in areas like Ferguson, where crime is rampant?

(I'm really more liberal on most social issues, especially civil liberties, but this one requires a huge dose of practicality, including in the equation the type of person who is motivated to become a LEO in the first place; the risk and stress they face every day; the intelligence and skill level of LEOs - which notoriously have been held to be acceptably limited to people who DON'T score high on IQ tests (http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836); and the increased lack of future that the economically disadvantaged of all races feel, that leads them to dangerous, reckless, self-destructive behavior that doesn't make sense to someone who has an expectation of living comfortably into old age. It is to me insane to expect the LEOs to have to worry about the nuances of constitutional law, when someone who is displaying uncivilized antisocial behavior presents themselves as a threat and puts the LEO at risk of imminent death - dithering over the analysis the LEO is supposed to conduct in a second or two regarding what is "reasonable" in that instant is in my opinion, unreasonable per se.)

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Compare and contrast?

http://www.live.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/sep/25/ohio-shooting-walmart-video

One involved a 40-minute confrontation with an openly hostile suspect, the other took seconds. Based on my experience, my guess is at the after-debriefing debriefing...the one at the bar...we would learn that the cops "identified with" the old fart...he reminded them of their ******* uncle or neighbor. He was "us." The kid was a "them," not an us. That's why he was shot and killed within seconds of their arrival.

And while I agree that we don't need laws saying we can all carry weapons, those are the laws we have. (My reference to "civilized" was that the rest of the world seems to do without these insane laws. To me, THEY are civilized...we are not.)

But which cops responded in a "civilized" manner? I know who I'd vote for.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Btw...I did not learn terms like "contempt of cop," from hanging with criminals. There were also arrests made for "Suspicion of being an *******," "Driving while ____ (fill in disparaging term for any non-white race)," and, for how a gang-related murder call would be logged as (penal code section for) Petty Theft Life, no loss, no report." IOW, the dead person's life was as valuable as a missing garden hose.

 

[DianaCox]

I will say the Kalamazoo officers went above and beyond. I might well have shot the old fart.

I'm of course troubled by the Walmart shooting - the kid dropped the gun, but then he went around the corner, then turned and RAN back at the cops. Why did he run back? Why did he not just stop and put his hands up and not move? I think it is important to NOT scare a cop who is performing his job in a high stress situation!

Of course the age of the "perps" affected the outcome too - I am not sure an old black man brandishing a weapon in Kalamazoo would have been shot, or that a white kid in the Walmart would not have been. There are too many variables here.

But of course I have NO doubt that many if not most LEOs - including black LEOs - harbor racially based predispositions and judgments. I'm pretty sure there are stats somewhere that show that black LEOs shoot young black men more often than other people too (I did some searching but couldn't find anything that said that though).

 

[Charris]

@Diana the reason the perp did not stop idk. But let me use the incident with Rodney King, whether you comply or not being a person of color you still may get your azz beat or killed. It's not something new it has been happening just not being caught on video. Its easy for you to be like this is what they should do and they would be ok. Wrong, you will never ever understand what people of color experience. You will never understand because you being anglo and female just like there are preconceived feelings about people of color they have preconceived notions about how an interaction with you will be.

 

[DianaCox]

I saw one article that said that all races see young black men as older than they actually are, and view black teen boys as men, attributing to them expectations of adult behaviors, not as children.

IIRC, in the Rodney King case, the cops started hitting him because he was drunk and disorderly and was resisting arrest - and then they went way WAY over the line.

I am neither saying that I know what people of color experience, nor that I disbelieve that they are routinely mistreated in every way possible (racial profiling, excessive force, arrested and charged disproportionately) by LEOs. What I am saying is that in some of these extreme situations, I think that the behavior of the person towards the LEOs contributed to the escalation to violence. Disproportionately often, yes, but I think it is unusual that the civilian in this situation has completely clean hands. Not always, but most of the time.

I know that as a woman, I have often felt like I have to be especially careful to not put myself in a position where simply being female could put me disproportionately at risk of being hurt/raped. So that vulnerability is somewhat akin, I think.

I think that the accountability of the body cams (assuming they are fool-proofed) is an excellent technological idea whose time has come. It is axiomatic that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Adding the accountability of having the incident filmed may go a long way to fixing the problem. But I also bet that some perps will take advantage of the LEOs reluctance to have their behavior second-guessed, and I bet the rate of LEOs getting killed goes up too.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

A hundred years ago, or thereabouts, (more like 45), the feds paid for a temporary program designed to thwart drunk driving. It went like...
Any time a patrol unit thought they had a drunk driver, they would radio for the special unit. Special unit would join the regular unit and follow the suspected DUI and videotape the experience. (New technology at the time.) The vehicle stop would be videotaped, as would the field sobriety test and the arrest. Original unit would transport and book the suspect, while the specially funded guys would go off to the next request.

The conviction rate was VERY close to 100%, mostly because once they sobered up and saw themselves on tape, most people just wanted to quietly pay their fines or serve their time and make it all go away. Sober, they knew that no judge/no jury would go for the "just a couple of beers" routine.

And then the money dried up and we went back to the old reindeer games. Stupid.

And these days, cops are followed on GPS and they had BETTER have a good reason for not taking the shortest route to their next call and none of them can take "a slight detour" and go home to start a load of laundry...or to a girlfriend's house to get laid...while on the clock. Taxpayers are getting their money's worth.

But body cams are not too much to ask. Right now in Los Angeles (city and county), starting pay, for [at the bottom of the barrel] a 20-year-old with a GED and a history that includes misdemeanor convictions, is $57k/per year...plus excellent benefit and retirement packages. Granted, not too many of those get hired, but some do. Cashiers at Walmart are on camera their entire shift...so are the guys at the carwash...and they don't get to (legally) point guns at people and suspend their freedom to go home. Cameras will protect the good cops and help management get rid of the bad ones.

 

[JackieOnLine]

But body cams are not too much to ask.

yep, this needs to happen. and it needs to be constantly streaming, so if it is messed with the video is still out there in the cloud or whatever. it is already out there.