Are people really this reckless with their own health?

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BrianChesteen

Glad to be a Loser!
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Messages
155
Location
East TN
Saw this today on my surgeon's FB group:

"I have only bought and eaten the ones from Dr. Boyce's office myself and I have never really paid attention to what is in them because I figured they wouldn't offer it if it could cause harm to our systems."

:YDRBATCDY:
 
Vitamins yes...but the particular post however was related to the "food supplements" he also sells. You see he also sells "Bari-Life" branded HealthWise food/protein supplements. The hospital also serves these same protein shakes post op. They may be fine for pre-op and maybe post op for LAP or VSG patients but RNY folks and definately DS patients need better stuff!

The problem with those supplements are that many of them are casein protein products and using his one size fits all marketing, he says they are good for all WLS patients. While I have no statistical proof, I have a pretty good suspicion that casein based protein never gets absorbed by a DS'r and turns into expensive poop. Many of their products also have tons of sugar alcohols in them as well. I know many DS'rs say that sugar alcohols tear them up. I have not noticed this myself but I have been very limited on my intake of those.

I voiced my opinion on them and got what was quoted above as a response...

I really don't understand why a surgeon as talented, well respected and experienced would hang himself out there so far on that conflict of interest business he has selling multi vits and food supplements. I know it is extra income for his wife and gives her something to do but he really needs to drop this multi vite bull crap with DS'rs before he misleads someone to the point of death from vitamin/protein deficiencies.
 
Not that I approve of Boyce's marketing this crap, but why - scientifically - do you think DSers can't absorb casein??
 
Not that I approve of Boyce's marketing this crap, but why - scientifically - do you think DSers can't absorb casein??

I have no scientific knowledge whatsoever other than the fact that it is very low on the bioavailability scale and almost everything you read about it says that it is very slow to absorb. I imagine a DS'r can absorb it but the question is how well?

The surgeon and his NUTS say we are wasting money on time release medications yet they try to sell us essentially time release protein. That does not make sense to me.
That is strictly my thoughts on it and I have no evidence to back it up.

I guess my feelings are why would someone waste time with that stuff when there are way better options available?

I am always open to being educated if my thoughts are misguided. You are way way more qualified than I am to even discuss the subject!
 
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I am no science geek and I can't vouch for the research but, I found this really interesting.

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/rr-whey-too-much

Research Reviews
Research Review: Protein supplements – are you absorbing them?
by Helen Kollias

For ages the great debate over protein has been how much protein do I need? There have been many knock-down, drag-out fights over how much is enough and how much is too much.
In the red corner: the RDAs who recommend 0.36-0.8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight (0.8 g/kg to 1.2-1.8 g/kg) in daily protein intake!
In the blue corner: the fitness experts who recommend 1-2g/lb (2.2 to 4.4 g/kg)!
Ding! Ding!
Now I’m going to be the one who leaps into the ring unexpectedly with the folding chair.
Forget how much you’re eating. How much are you absorbing?
What if you aren’t absorbing all – or even half – of the protein you’re eating?
Whoa, now that’s a knockout idea!
Eating versus absorbing
You may be smugly thinking, “Helen, this isn’t news. Everybody know that most people have low stomach acid and can’t absorb all the protein from a steak.” But what about whey protein? You should be able to absorb that pretty easily, right? Figure you could absorb pretty close to 100% of a whey protein shake, right? You feeling lucky, protein punk?
Well, you’re wrong. We only digest a small amount of whey protein in liquid form. Are you surprised? If not, I’m not ashamed to admit that I was.
Surprise aside, the research is pretty clear. Indeed, a recent study examined how much whey protein we can absorb in one sitting. And let me just say that it looks like a lot of whey is literally going down the toilet.
Forget the spider – Little Miss Muffet has other problems
Turns out that it takes 1.5 hours for viscous liquids (e.g. a whey protein shake) to pass through the section of the gut that can actually absorb it. But that’s not the breaking news. Here’s the big story. The maximum rate that whey protein can be absorbed is about 8-10 grams per hour.
WARNING! Math ahead!
Little Miss Muffet drank a 50 gram whey protein shake. Since Miss Muffet can absorb only 10 grams every hour. How long does it take for Miss Muffet to absorb all the protein?
50 grams / 10 grams per hour = 5 hours
So, it would take 5 hours to digest all that protein. But remember, we have only 1.5 hours to get ‘er done. Therefore Miss Muffet has no chance of absorbing all of it. She’ll absorb – at most – 15 grams. And the other 35 grams? Well, they’re wasted. Unless…
Research question
As mentioned above, a recent article looked at one possible way of boosting whey protein absorption – and, by extension, amino acid delivery and muscle growth. Here’s the reference:
Oben J, Kothari SC & Anderson; ML. An open label study to determine the effects of an oral proteolytic enzyme on whey protein concentrate metabolism in healthy males JISSN 2008 5(10).
In this study the researchers asked the question: what can people do to increase whey absorption?
(Well, actually, they asked whether “digestive proteases would increase the absorption rate of [whey protein concentrate] WPC.” But the question above just sounds better…that’s why we translated the academese for you.)
Methods
In this study, forty-one participants volunteered to have their blood and urine analysed. They were healthy men that were lean (with BMI between 20 and 24), and relatively younger – between 19-35 years old.
These participants were given a plain vanilla flavoured whey protein concentrate powder that was 85% protein, 6% fat, 3% ash, and 6% lactose – no solublizers, emulsifiers or “fillers”. (By the way, it turns out that 50 grams of whey protein powder is actually 42.5 grams protein.)
What next?
Well, first, the researchers looked at what happens when these guys drank a 50g serving of whey protein alone (known as the control sample). And after the supplement, they tested two things: serum amino acid levels (the amount of amino acids circulating in the bloodstream) and total nitrogen excreted.
They measured serum amino acid levels before drinking the whey and at various points afterwards (30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, 3.5 hours and 4 hours after drinking the whey protein).
To measure total nitrogen excreted, researchers also collected participants’ urine for 24 hours after drinking the whey. Knowing how much protein in ingested (the whey) and how much nitrogen is excreted (urine) you get a sense of the overall nitrogen balance. It’s important to note that there are are more sensitive methods for determining overall nitrogen balance using blood analysis.
Geek alert!
More in-depth scientific explanation!
Nitrogen balance is when nitrogen intake (food with protein) = nitrogen excretion.
If nitrogen intake is more than nitrogen excretion then you have an anabolic state in the body that allows for growth (good if you want to gain or maintain muscle).
If nitrogen is less than nitrogen excretion then you have a catabolic state in the body that allows for tissue breakdown (not good if you want to gain or maintain muscle).
Since the amount of whey ingested is the same in all cases a decrease in nitrogen excretion means a more positive nitrogen balance. So, in this case less nitrogen excretion means a situation for more muscle growth!
Results
It turns out that when participants drank whey alone, it took 4 hours to reach maximum total serum amino acids levels, which increased about 30% from baseline (from 1.71mg/L to 2.22mg/L). So, with straight unadulterated whey you get a 30% increase in total amino acid levels after 4 hours. Now what?
Maybe Little Miss Muffet should get off her tuffet and try digestive enzymes.
While the findings about whey alone are interesting, the real purpose of this study was to test whether proteolytic enzymes helped increase protein absorption. Proteolytic enzymes (in this case, Aspergillus niger and Aspergillus oryzae) are simply digestive enzymes that help digest protein.
After the entire group took whey without any enzymes, researchers split the group up. One group drank whey along with 2.5 grams of enzymes; the second group drank the same amount of whey, but with 5 grams of enzymes.
As with drinking whey on its own, both groups had peak serum amino acid levels 4 hours afterwards. Nothing exciting there. We’ve already learned that it takes time for whey to be absorbed.
But whey and enzymes together had much higher amino acid levels after 4 hours. Remember that without any enzymes there was only a paltry 30% increase in amino acid levels. With 2.5 grams of enzymes, amino acid levels were 110% higher after 4 hours. With 5 grams of enzymes, even better: 127% higher.
Holy curds! 127% versus 30% in the same time frame – that’s impressive!
As it happens, the researchers also looked at individual amino acids. You know, alanine, valine and a bunch of other ‘ines. The group taking in 5 grams of enzymes also had higher individual amino acid levels than when drinking whey alone, with the exception of serine and methionine. So all branched chain amino acids (BCAAs) were higher with 5 grams of enzymes.
Another interesting finding was that less nitrogen was excreted when the whey also had enzymes. Again, remember: less nitrogen excreted means a more positive nitrogen balance, which means a more anabolic environment in the body.
Conclusions
First, it’s pretty clear that you probably aren’t absorbing all the protein in your whey if you’re drinking it plain and in viscous (liquid) form. From this study (and others), it seems that under normal conditions, liquids rush through the GI tract too quickly and that only a small amount of protein can be absorbed during normal transit time.
From this study it’s also evident that higher doses of whey protein are better absorbed if you take digestive enzymes at the same time. When you do this, you get higher amino acid levels in your blood, so that you have more available to your muscles and other tissues, which is pretty much the whole point of drinking whey – to make amino acids available to your body.
Second, it got me thinking: what other things help us absorb whey protein? My questions:
  1. If I sip my whey protein drink, or drink small amounts every 15 minutes or so, therefore spreading the whey drink out over an hour or two, is the absorption better?
  2. If I find some way to slow down transit time, by making a Super Shake, by adding the protein to oatmeal, or by using a milk blend containing casein, would that slow transit time enough to make a difference in absorption?
My suspicions are yes – both would help increase absorption. Although not as much as seen with enzyme supplementation. So the best of both worlds, if you’re looking for increased absorption, would probably be to slow down transit time AND supplement with proteolytic enzymes.
Now, on a side not, I do have to mention that this study was sponsored by the company that makes whey protein powder with these enzymes. Of course, I’m not saying the study isn’t accurate. However, I always, always look at where the money comes from for studies. Why? Because to some degree, funding will influence the interpretation, design, or outcome of the research.
But back to the physiology. It appears that in the end, we should all be more concerned about how much of whatever we are eating is actually being absorbed. What you eat doesn’t necessarily mean what you absorb and have available to you.
In the case of whey protein supplementation, thanks to the science, the days of slamming a 50g protein shake are gone. If you don’t find ways to slow transit time and/or increase the rate of whey absorption, you’ll be spending your hard earned cash on boosting fecal and urinary nitrogen vs. increasing muscle protein.
 
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Here is another article:

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/whey-vs-casein

I didn't want to copy it over because with the tables, it might not come over well.

Absorption rates
The other difference between whey protein and casein protein is how fast the protein is absorbed, and for how long.
Researchers measure blood amino acids to figure out rate of protein absorption. Drinking whey protein causes increases in blood amino acids levels in under an hour, with peak levels at just under 90 minutes. Casein takes longer to increase blood amino acids, but lasts longer, with elevated levels lasting over 300 minutes
 
My BFF has been here visiting for a week. Driving me up a freakin' tree. She has ALWAYS been ADHD and anorexic and the problems add up over time. She is now 75 years old with the attention span of a gnat.

She takes "fibro pills," and "back pills," and "those things that give me gas." I have to go online at her clinic...luckily they keep accounts online to see the NAMES of what she takes...and I have to ask questions...like, "you have that rash AND you stopped taking the benadryl. Tell me again why you stopped taking it." And I hear, "Nothing was bothering me and they give me too damned many pills anyway."

She is losing it all around, but the medical part is among the scariest of the aspects. And her impatience does not help. She has no idea what meds she is taking, but if they don't work instantly, she says, "F 'em." And she stops the meds...and then doesn't tell the doctor."

I do not understand blind faith or random non-compliance. Makes me nuts.
 
My BFF has been here visiting for a week. Driving me up a freakin' tree. She has ALWAYS been ADHD and anorexic and the problems add up over time. She is now 75 years old with the attention span of a gnat.

She takes "fibro pills," and "back pills," and "those things that give me gas." I have to go online at her clinic...luckily they keep accounts online to see the NAMES of what she takes...and I have to ask questions...like, "you have that rash AND you stopped taking the benadryl. Tell me again why you stopped taking it." And I hear, "Nothing was bothering me and they give me too damned many pills anyway."

She is losing it all around, but the medical part is among the scariest of the aspects. And her impatience does not help. She has no idea what meds she is taking, but if they don't work instantly, she says, "F 'em." And she stops the meds...and then doesn't tell the doctor."

I do not understand blind faith or random non-compliance. Makes me nuts.
I have this issue with my daddy....he hates any and all medication. Would not even take an aspirin if his head was about to fall off! He told his PCP (IN MY PRESENCE) that he was either coming off one or would just stop taking ALL of them (he is on 3). His PCP avoided the issue by making him go have lab work and told him if that turned out okay, he would consider it. His cholesterol med is apparently working JUST fine but not well enough to come off it, he is also on a medication for his memory and one for his heart...he's HAD a couple of heart attacks. And his memory...well, not really sure how well THAT one is working.
 
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