(UP-Updated with test results). Vitamin D Confession...

Spiky Bugger

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Bless me, Bariatric Facts Board, for I have sinned. It has been a couple of years since my last Vitamin D Compromise...

I have committed Dry D infidelity, yet again. To please another, otherwise very reasonable, physician.

She was as diplomatic as she could be...trying not to scream that I was taking what had to be toxic doses of Vitamin D. (And, she DID have a point that I wasn't absorbing much of the D that I was taking, so why not give her plan a try, right?). And I was as cooperative as I could be, giving her four weeks with me on that silly-ass Rx Vitamin D, as long as we had a new test at the end of four weeks...which was today.

In a few days, the test results will be in.

I'm pretty sure I will fail that test. And so will she.

Our collective penance will be to try to figure out how we can get me to absorb even a little Vitamin D.
 
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Patches? I have no idea if they work, but I'm inclined to believe the fat soluble vitamin patches are more likely to work than any other supplement.
 
Oh yeah...and while my Ds were low and high



Test Reference Range

Calcitriol(1,25 Di-Oh Vit D 135.5 (10.0-75.0 pg/mL)



Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy. 21.7 (30.0-100.0 ng/mL)



...my Calcium and PTH Intact were just fine...


Pth, Intact 43 (15-65pg/mL)
Calcium, Serum 9.6 (8.6-10.2mg/dL)



...which seems even less understandable.
 
You can also get an injection of Vitamin D if needed, and I would think you would absorb it the same as a normal person. Not to say that you aren't normal or anything...
 
You can also get an injection of Vitamin D if needed, and I would think you would absorb it the same as a normal person. Not to say that you aren't normal or anything...


lol...I just keep telling myself that you do me that way because you adore me...I once got a jumbo jolt of Vitamin D from Keshishian. If I recall, there was minimal, temporary improvement...but, hey...that's better than nothing, right?
 
Ah Spiky, you knows I loves you! Maybe the patches would work better. Certainly worth a try.
 
I have been using the Vitamin D3 with Calcium (also have magnesium) patches from Patch MD for just a week so no tests to share. Maybe @star0210 can give you some numbers?

Anyway, I have ordered twice (one month supply each time) from Amazon because the Vitamin D3 with Calcium are STILL on backorder from the official site. I want it mostly for the calcium, I am having a tough time with constipation.
 
I have been using the Vitamin D3 with Calcium (also have magnesium) patches from Patch MD for just a week so no tests to share. Maybe @star0210 can give you some numbers?

Anyway, I have ordered twice (one month supply each time) from Amazon because the Vitamin D3 with Calcium are STILL on backorder from the official site. I want it mostly for the calcium, I am having a tough time with constipation.
WARNING! Not only do I have my doubts about calcium absorption through the skin, but YOU NEED CALCIUM IN YOUR GUT TO BIND TO OXALATES!! I believe you are going to put yourself at risk of kidney stones!
 
I see and am heeding your warning. I am also trying to understand how calcium, magnesium and oxalates effect each other not to mention vitamin C.

I am continuing to take extra magnesium citrate, might that help? I also supplement potassium citrate in order to thwart kidney stones. I am really trying to find a good balance for my bowels.

Effects of calcium and magnesium on urinary oxalate excretion after oxalate loads.

Liebman M1, Costa G.
Author information
  • 1Department of Human Nutrition, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071, USA.
Abstract
PURPOSE:
Urinary oxalate is a primary determinant of the level of calcium oxalate saturation and the formation of calcium oxalate crystals, a key event in kidney stone formation. The primary objective of this study was to compare the effects of calcium carbonate and magnesium oxide on oxalate absorption.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
An experimental model was used that allowed differentiation between endogenously and oxalate load-derived urinary oxalate. Twenty-four healthy subjects (10 males, 14 females) participated in three oxalate load (OL) tests: control (OL alone), calcium carbonate (OL with concomitant calcium carbonate ingestion), and magnesium oxide (OL with concomitant magnesium oxide ingestion). Oxalate loads consisted of 180 mg. unlabeled and 18 mg. 1,2[13C2] oxalic acid. Timed urine samples were collected after the OL for analysis of oxalate, calcium, magnesium, and creatinine.
RESULTS:
Both the calcium carbonate and magnesium oxide treatments were associated with significantly lower load-derived oxalate levels at all time points within the initial 24-hour post-oxalate ingestion period compared with levels observed for the control treatment. There were no treatment effects on endogenous oxalate levels. The efficiency of oxalate absorption for the calcium carbonate (5.1%) and magnesium oxide (7.6%) treatments was significantly lower than that for the control treatment (13.5%).
CONCLUSIONS:
The results suggested that magnesium was nearly as effective as calcium in reducing oxalate absorption and urinary excretion. Higher levels of urinary oxalate, calcium, and magnesium in males appeared to be largely a function of body size since gender differences either disappeared or were reversed when a correction was made for urinary creatinine excretion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10751889
 
"I am continuing to take extra magnesium citrate, might that help?"

Not with oxalates - they bind to CALCIUM in the gut.
 
Because of my post here: http://bariatricfacts.org/threads/patchmd-who-has-used-them-reviews.2381/page-3 - there is NO published data for calcium by transdermal delivery, and the iron results (ferrous iron is also a +2 ion, same as calcium, copper, zinc and magnesium) involve more complicated mechanical interventions.

Calcium + (transdermal delivery): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=calcium "transdermal delivery"NO RELEVANT RESULTS

In fact, I didn't find anything for this search either "transdermal delivery" (iron OR copper OR calcium OR zinc OR magnesium)" except some references like the one below that involves microneedles for administering transdermal iron, and a patent application from 2010 that also involved patches PLUS electricity, ultrasound, etc. for mechanically causing the iron in the patch to get past the skin. Which is why I doubt the patches actually work for calcium - I didn't find ONE SINGLE reference on PubMed showing it. But here are the search results - I didn't go back more than a couple of years:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=transdermal delivery" (iron OR copper OR calcium OR zinc OR magnesium)

Iron + (transdermal delivery): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=iron "transdermal delivery"

Full length article - in rats - required prepping the skin with needles: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3578117/
Pharm Res. 2013 Mar;30(3):889-98. doi: 10.1007/s11095-012-0930-2. Epub 2012 Nov 28.
Microporation and 'iron'tophoresis for treating iron deficiency anemia.
Modepalli N1, Jo S, Repka MA, Murthy SN.
Author information

Abstract
PURPOSE:

Iontophoretic mediated transdermal delivery of ferric pyrophosphate (FPP) in combination with microneedle pretreatment was investigated as a potential treatment for iron deficiency anemia (IDA).

METHODS:
In vitro transdermal delivery studies were performed using hairless rat skin and pharmacodynamic studies were performed in hairless anemic rat model. The hematological and biochemical parameters like hemoglobin, hematocrit and % serum transferrin were monitored in rats at healthy, anemic condition and post treatment. Micropores created by the microneedles were visualized in histological skin sections after staining with hemotoxylin and eosin. The recovery of micropores was investigated in vivo by measuring Transepidermal water loss (TEWL) at different time points.

RESULTS:
The passive, microneedle and iontophoresis mediated delivery did not lead to significant improvement in hematological and biochemical parameters in anemic rats, when used individually. When iontophoresis (0.15 mA/cm(2) for 4 hours) was combined with microneedle pretreatment (for 2 min), therapeutically adequate amount of FPP was delivered and there was significant recovery of rats from IDA.

CONCLUSIONS:
Microneedle and iontophoresis mediated delivery of iron via transdermal route could be developed as a potential treatment for IDA. The transdermal controlled delivery of iron could become a potential, safe and effective alternative to parenteral iron therapy.​

This is the patent application: http://www.google.com/patents/US20100130910
"In other embodiments, the administration of a therapeutically effective amount of iron in the form of one or more ferrous salts involves using embodiments of a mechanical apparatus in order to bypass or ablate portions of the stratum corneum. In related embodiments, the methods of the invention provide for the use of ultrasound or iontophoresis to facilitate the permeation of compositions comprising iron (e.g., ferrous salts) through the skin."

"Various embodiments of the invention also contemplate the creation of micro-channels in the stratum corneum and/or other layers of skin (e.g., the epidermis) for enhancing the transdermal delivery of an iron containing compound or other pharmaceutical composition. The micro-channels can be created using several different approaches including by mechanical means, (e.g., through the use of micro-needles or other tissue penetrating element), electrical means (e.g., by an electrostatic discharge to the skin); acoustical means (e.g., the use of high frequency ultrasound delivered to the skin); and chemical means (e.g., the use of permeabilizing agents)."
Seems to me that if these things were really effective, there would be published literature on them.
 
@DianaCox, why do you doubt our ability to absorb calcium trans dermally? Is it due to the molecular structure/weight of calcium?


There's a long, scientific, Diana-caliber answer I will never comprehend down below. I read in a book about kidney stones that the calcium needs to be physically present in the gut, not just in the blood. "Official" explanation:

Problems also occur when insufficient calcium is available to bind oxalate in the small intestine. For instance certain types of bowel disease (e.g., gastric bypass, rapid intestinal transit, or problems with insufficient bile and/or pancreatic secretions that help digest fat) cause fat malabsorption. Fat gobbles up calcium and creates a “soap” similar to the soapy film that occurs when you wash your hands in hard water. Consequently, calcium is unavailable to bind oxalate. Therefore, excess oxalate is absorbed (because it’s unbound) in the large intestine and excreted in the urine. This scenario often leads to calcium oxalate stone formation.

So...if we don't get tons of calcium into our guts, we will never get enough into our blood for our bodies to function properly.

I think.

@DianaCox ...is this correct?
 

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