Elizabeth N.
Herder of cats
I'll read through the links shortly, too.
Ungrateful wretches, AKA adult children
- Thread starter DianaCox
- Start date
So I am utterly unfluent in military-ese - he did four years in the Marines, and was in the Middle East and Afghanistan - does that = deployed?
The thing is, I didn't see that it mattered - he is a vet, and has an honorable discharge, has a family and is homeless - they qualify, and the failure to respond in less than two weeks, the constantly moving goalposts, the demand for papers that someone who is homeless would likely not be able to provide and which the PROGRAM should be able to access themselves, and of course the suggestions to do unethical things, trouble to me.
The thing is, I didn't see that it mattered - he is a vet, and has an honorable discharge, has a family and is homeless - they qualify, and the failure to respond in less than two weeks, the constantly moving goalposts, the demand for papers that someone who is homeless would likely not be able to provide and which the PROGRAM should be able to access themselves, and of course the suggestions to do unethical things, trouble to me.
Elizabeth N.
Herder of cats
Yup, he was deployed by virtue of having been in Afghanistan for sure. "Middle East" = there might be some variations in how certain bases/locations are "valued." A happy stint in one of the civilized place (dunno where the "good places" are over there, since our experience was all in Europe) might be in a different "class" than, say, time spent in Iraq.
In *some* cases, that can open access to a little bit more by way of services. It can move the veteran up the priority ladder a notch or two for certain services. There are also some private entities the provide help to *combat* vets (maybe also to deployed vets) but not to vets like Mr. EN, who thankfully never saw a day of combat or hazardous duty.
Finally got groceries put away and lunch made, so now I can look at the links.
Elizabeth N.
Herder of cats
Okay, I read your post with all the quotes first and will comment on that. Still haven't gone to the websites so I might amend or change my mind. BUT: Compared to the status of a hell of a lot of OTHER vets, SIL is, indeed, in pretty damned good shape. While he is technically homeless, his minor child is in no danger of sleeping outside. They HAVE shelter.
These programs run (issues of potential fraud set aside, since obviously I have no clue how they are run) on the tyranny of the urgent. SIL's situation is not NEARLY as urgent as what programs like these see umpteen times per day. As miserable as everyone is feeling in this position, it looks pretty damned spiffy to a caseworker who is trying to get people under SOME kind of roof all day, every day. He clearly doesn't know what really BAD OFF looks like and neither does SD.
Regarding the copy of the discharge and the variations on the DD-214: He can and SHOULD have appropriate copies of these documents in his possession, kept in a safe deposit box or similarly safe environment. If he missed the memo on that in his discharge counseling, cry me a river. Zero sympathy regarding the trip to Oakland.
What vets without means do is go to places like the one where I work. We connect them with places like Soldier On, which is regional and therefore of no use to SIL. They get a vet buddy out to walk the vet without means through the paperwork process to get the appropriate forms.
Now that SIL knows about this stuff, he can pay it forward to vets without means, if he is so inclined.
Regarding his income level stuff: Um, his student loans might not officially count toward the bottom line income stuff, but it *does* make a difference in their ability to survive. I don't know where he gets the idea that he is a higher priority client than a single vet in a shelter.
He is TECHNICALLY homeless. People live that way for YEARS at a time. Funding is limited and resources are stretched incredibly thin (again, speaking in general, no clue whether the places you linked might be doing anything shady).
Okay, now I'm looking at the sites. What Abode Services and Operation Dignity do is to help people who are in an entirely different condition of need than SIL and SD are. SIL and SD do not, at this point, have the faintest idea what truly NEEDY is. Sorry, but that's how a program like Abode is going to see them. Are they on Medicaid (or eligible), SNAP, WIC? If they are not in THAT category of income (or just BARELY above, like hovering just a bit above minimum wage) AND really and truly homeless, then trust me, they will go to the back of the client line for a place like that.
For SSVF purposes, he is an "at-risk vet" and not, I believe, a "homeless vet." Has he been talking to SSVF people? Is Operation Dignity the place where he interacts with the appropriate Dept. of Veterans Affairs people in his area?
These programs run (issues of potential fraud set aside, since obviously I have no clue how they are run) on the tyranny of the urgent. SIL's situation is not NEARLY as urgent as what programs like these see umpteen times per day. As miserable as everyone is feeling in this position, it looks pretty damned spiffy to a caseworker who is trying to get people under SOME kind of roof all day, every day. He clearly doesn't know what really BAD OFF looks like and neither does SD.
Regarding the copy of the discharge and the variations on the DD-214: He can and SHOULD have appropriate copies of these documents in his possession, kept in a safe deposit box or similarly safe environment. If he missed the memo on that in his discharge counseling, cry me a river. Zero sympathy regarding the trip to Oakland.
What vets without means do is go to places like the one where I work. We connect them with places like Soldier On, which is regional and therefore of no use to SIL. They get a vet buddy out to walk the vet without means through the paperwork process to get the appropriate forms.
Now that SIL knows about this stuff, he can pay it forward to vets without means, if he is so inclined.
Regarding his income level stuff: Um, his student loans might not officially count toward the bottom line income stuff, but it *does* make a difference in their ability to survive. I don't know where he gets the idea that he is a higher priority client than a single vet in a shelter.
He is TECHNICALLY homeless. People live that way for YEARS at a time. Funding is limited and resources are stretched incredibly thin (again, speaking in general, no clue whether the places you linked might be doing anything shady).
Okay, now I'm looking at the sites. What Abode Services and Operation Dignity do is to help people who are in an entirely different condition of need than SIL and SD are. SIL and SD do not, at this point, have the faintest idea what truly NEEDY is. Sorry, but that's how a program like Abode is going to see them. Are they on Medicaid (or eligible), SNAP, WIC? If they are not in THAT category of income (or just BARELY above, like hovering just a bit above minimum wage) AND really and truly homeless, then trust me, they will go to the back of the client line for a place like that.
For SSVF purposes, he is an "at-risk vet" and not, I believe, a "homeless vet." Has he been talking to SSVF people? Is Operation Dignity the place where he interacts with the appropriate Dept. of Veterans Affairs people in his area?
Hell, even now that I have been out 30+ years, I STILL have a copy of my DD214...for a vet, it may as well be GOLD.
If he did manage to misplace it, he can get a copy from NARA: http://www.archives.gov/veterans/ but HE has to do it...until he dies no one else can get it for him.
I requested a copy of my daddy's DD214 back in June...I still don't have it. I need it to request a headstone for him. Veteran Affairs moves very slowly.
There is a hotline for homeless and at risk vets and their families. http://www.va.gov/homeless/nationalcallcenter.asp
If he did manage to misplace it, he can get a copy from NARA: http://www.archives.gov/veterans/ but HE has to do it...until he dies no one else can get it for him.
I requested a copy of my daddy's DD214 back in June...I still don't have it. I need it to request a headstone for him. Veteran Affairs moves very slowly.
There is a hotline for homeless and at risk vets and their families. http://www.va.gov/homeless/nationalcallcenter.asp
He did have the regular DD214, but not the LONG form - it was somewhere in storage, because - you know - he's homeless. And the point was, why was that required, and why was HE required to get it, when the vet sleeping in St. John's Park on a bench probably would not only not have his D214 LONG form, but would also have no way to get to Oakland. The point was WHY make the vet produce this hardly-ever-used document, which he was given 5 or 6 years ago and he has never needed for anything else, where his DD214 short form (which of course he has on hand) has always sufficed, and when the VA organization that is supposed to be assisting him could have verified his status with a call, a search or a fax right there in the office? And they had two separate pieces of official documentation that he was honorably discharged - why require THIS specific paper? There was nothing he saw in the regs that demanded this particular piece of paper - it appeared to be a new and unnecessary requirement (not told to him earlier, nor in any documentation he was able to find in the regulations) interposed solely for delay.
"Are they on Medicaid (or eligible), SNAP, WIC?" Yes. And for reasons I don't understand, neither his wife nor child are entitled to TriCare.
"Now that SIL knows about this stuff, he can pay it forward to vets without means, if he is so inclined." Yes, at the very least, his intent is to complain to the congress-critters about ridiculous inefficiencies and mismanagement of the program, and possible corruption and fraud, as well as waste. That should help clear the path for people coming behind him who also need access to these services.
What they are doing is the equivalent of what the insurance companies do to the morbidly obese - and what you seem to be doing is blaming him (and me) for seeing these hurdles as unnecessary, simply because you see him as not being as entitled to the benefits of the program as someone who doesn't have parents who can be imposed on. Either his family qualifies for the program or not - what the program administrators are doing seems to be very very wrong. There is NO indication that he's been given that they don't have the funds to support everyone who has applied, so I see no reason to stratify (or actively discourage) the applicants after they apply - either they qualify or they don't.
ETA: I still think he's a jerk, but I've seen NOTHING to suggest that he should not be given the benefits of this program, which was designed to help people in his situation.
By the way - perhaps this will put their financial situation in context:
http://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-jose-rent-trends/
"Are they on Medicaid (or eligible), SNAP, WIC?" Yes. And for reasons I don't understand, neither his wife nor child are entitled to TriCare.
"Now that SIL knows about this stuff, he can pay it forward to vets without means, if he is so inclined." Yes, at the very least, his intent is to complain to the congress-critters about ridiculous inefficiencies and mismanagement of the program, and possible corruption and fraud, as well as waste. That should help clear the path for people coming behind him who also need access to these services.
What they are doing is the equivalent of what the insurance companies do to the morbidly obese - and what you seem to be doing is blaming him (and me) for seeing these hurdles as unnecessary, simply because you see him as not being as entitled to the benefits of the program as someone who doesn't have parents who can be imposed on. Either his family qualifies for the program or not - what the program administrators are doing seems to be very very wrong. There is NO indication that he's been given that they don't have the funds to support everyone who has applied, so I see no reason to stratify (or actively discourage) the applicants after they apply - either they qualify or they don't.
ETA: I still think he's a jerk, but I've seen NOTHING to suggest that he should not be given the benefits of this program, which was designed to help people in his situation.
By the way - perhaps this will put their financial situation in context:
http://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-jose-rent-trends/
He's in his last year of school for his engineering degree at SJSU - they don't have much of a choice about where to live right now.
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Elizabeth N.
Herder of cats
Oh fer fucksake..... Go get the congresscritters involved, sue the government and have a fucking party doing it. This is one time when you do not know what the FUCK you are talking about and I am NOT going to listen to any more of this bullshit.
ETA: Oh good Lord, I just saw your Tricare comment. They are not entitled to Tricare BECAUSE HE'S NO LONGER IN THE MILITARY. He's been DISCHARGED. How many former employers provide the families of their former employees with health insurance?
http://www.tricare.mil/trosouth/downloads/TMA Combat_Vet_Flyer_Lo.pdf
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/tricarehelp/tag/separation-from-service/
ETA: Oh good Lord, I just saw your Tricare comment. They are not entitled to Tricare BECAUSE HE'S NO LONGER IN THE MILITARY. He's been DISCHARGED. How many former employers provide the families of their former employees with health insurance?
http://www.tricare.mil/trosouth/downloads/TMA Combat_Vet_Flyer_Lo.pdf
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/tricarehelp/tag/separation-from-service/
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Loss of Eligibility for Tricare: http://www.tricare.mil/Plans/Eligibility/LossEligibility.aspx
Liz, even when he was in the Marines, she apparently did not have TriCare. I don't know why. She and the child are on Medi-Cal, and WIC. He still uses his VA benefits though - I guess I don't know how TriCare works because EN still has it, so I assumed that SD should have been entitled to have it too. Maybe dependents get it after the vet retires, rather than is discharged?
Anyway, I forwarded the helpful information from the links you posted, both because there was a very recent notification of more money being awarded to these programs, and to follow up with the pleasant conversation with SD on Friday with a normal conversation with him, as if the unpleasantries of last Saturday had not happened. He responded that he had, and:
I guess it DID do some good to call the congressman after all, as I had suggested.
Anyway, I forwarded the helpful information from the links you posted, both because there was a very recent notification of more money being awarded to these programs, and to follow up with the pleasant conversation with SD on Friday with a normal conversation with him, as if the unpleasantries of last Saturday had not happened. He responded that he had, and:
I guess it DID do some good to call the congressman after all, as I had suggested.
EN still has it because Mr. EN is retired military. Therein lies the difference.
As to why she and your grandchild didn't while he was still in...who knows, but if I had to take a guess, it would be because he failed to add them.
As to why she and your grandchild didn't while he was still in...who knows, but if I had to take a guess, it would be because he failed to add them.
OK, that makes sense. He's been out for 5 years, so the baby was born afterwards. I didn't understand why she wasn't covered - but we weren't speaking at the time they got married or for a year or so after he got out - but when I asked SD whether she had it while he was in, she shrugged.
She was rewarded by her mother for being helpless and infantile, and I think SIL fostered that dependent behavior for a long time - I think it made him feel more manly to be needed, and she was ONLY too happy to remain helpless. Now that he has school and a kid and no GI bill left, it seems it suddenly occurred to him that she was not a full partner in the marriage (i.e., now it was inconVEEENient for her to be dependent, helpless and incompetent) - this is at the root of their current problems, of course. So it is entirely plausible that SD had no idea whether or not her husband added her to his TriCare insurance when he was still in - or that if she had it, she didn't make use of it.
The fact that they got pregnant under these circumstances is WHOLE nother issue. I don't know whether it was deliberate or not, or whether it was HER idea that they would have an oopsie. But that's water over the dam - the kid is 2+ years old and they need to take care of her, and themselves.
She was rewarded by her mother for being helpless and infantile, and I think SIL fostered that dependent behavior for a long time - I think it made him feel more manly to be needed, and she was ONLY too happy to remain helpless. Now that he has school and a kid and no GI bill left, it seems it suddenly occurred to him that she was not a full partner in the marriage (i.e., now it was inconVEEENient for her to be dependent, helpless and incompetent) - this is at the root of their current problems, of course. So it is entirely plausible that SD had no idea whether or not her husband added her to his TriCare insurance when he was still in - or that if she had it, she didn't make use of it.
The fact that they got pregnant under these circumstances is WHOLE nother issue. I don't know whether it was deliberate or not, or whether it was HER idea that they would have an oopsie. But that's water over the dam - the kid is 2+ years old and they need to take care of her, and themselves.
Spiky Bugger
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I have mine (my DD214), at hand at all times, and I was discharged in 1974. So that's 40 years!
DD214 short or long form? He had copies of the short one, but not the long one (it was somewhere in storage, as he had not been asked for it before, ever). I'm not pretending to understand the distinction, and I get that both short and long forms are important, but again - the issue was about what the agency needed and why, and that people who are homeless might not be able to access them easily - so the issues were, (1) why did they add that requirement so late in the process, (2) why did they not accept two other proofs of his status and (3) why was the requirement not seen ANYWHERE in the regs that control this program in the first place? In other words, this requirement appears to have been arbitrary, capricious and interposed for the purpose of delay.
And then there was the issues of SIL having deceptive behavior suggested to him, the delay when he refused, and the quick turnaround once the congressman was contacted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DD_Form_214
So that sounds to me like the "long" form is only optionally received in the first place? And I believe he had his Member 4 copy.
Anyway, it seems he now has "expedited" the issuance of the grant, so it's time for them to find a place to live - for $1400 or less/mo. There isn't much of ANYTHING for that price here, and certainly not with two bedrooms. That's OK - the kid is just 2, and he should be finished with school and have a job by the summer - but that is the Silicon Valley reality.
And then there was the issues of SIL having deceptive behavior suggested to him, the delay when he refused, and the quick turnaround once the congressman was contacted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DD_Form_214
Available versions[edit]
There are two versions of the DD Form 214, usually referred to simply as "short" (edited) and "long" (unedited) copies. The edited, or "short" copy omits a great deal of information, chiefly the characterization of service and reason for discharge, thus the unedited ("long") copy is generally desired by veterans' organizations, employers, and law enforcement agencies alike.
Copies[edit]
Service members are given the option of accepting the edited, unedited or both copies upon separation.
The most important copy of the DD 214 for the individual is the "Member 4" copy. It is the standard form needed to obtain benefits such as GI Bill or government employment priority.
The "Service 2" copy contains information as to the nature and type of discharge, and the re-enlistment code. This code is used to determine whether or not the service member can go back into the service. For unemployment benefits, veterans affairs benefits, as well as for several other services, the "Member's Copy 4" is usually needed. An identical copy to the "Service 2", the "Member 4", is provided directly to the service member upon release from active duty. The military will not provide a replacement "Member's Copy 4" (it is the service member's personal copy) and any request for a replacement is always honored by providing a "Service 2" copy.
There are two versions of the DD Form 214, usually referred to simply as "short" (edited) and "long" (unedited) copies. The edited, or "short" copy omits a great deal of information, chiefly the characterization of service and reason for discharge, thus the unedited ("long") copy is generally desired by veterans' organizations, employers, and law enforcement agencies alike.
Copies[edit]
Service members are given the option of accepting the edited, unedited or both copies upon separation.
The most important copy of the DD 214 for the individual is the "Member 4" copy. It is the standard form needed to obtain benefits such as GI Bill or government employment priority.
The "Service 2" copy contains information as to the nature and type of discharge, and the re-enlistment code. This code is used to determine whether or not the service member can go back into the service. For unemployment benefits, veterans affairs benefits, as well as for several other services, the "Member's Copy 4" is usually needed. An identical copy to the "Service 2", the "Member 4", is provided directly to the service member upon release from active duty. The military will not provide a replacement "Member's Copy 4" (it is the service member's personal copy) and any request for a replacement is always honored by providing a "Service 2" copy.
So that sounds to me like the "long" form is only optionally received in the first place? And I believe he had his Member 4 copy.
Anyway, it seems he now has "expedited" the issuance of the grant, so it's time for them to find a place to live - for $1400 or less/mo. There isn't much of ANYTHING for that price here, and certainly not with two bedrooms. That's OK - the kid is just 2, and he should be finished with school and have a job by the summer - but that is the Silicon Valley reality.
Spiky Bugger
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the kid is 2+ years old and they need to take care of her, and themselves.
You know, he could reenlist, she could enlist. They are not without options. They are just without options that involve no effort on their part.
Spiky Bugger
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In my day, there was only one kind of DD214.
But this..."the issue was about what the agency needed and why, and that people who are homeless might not be able to access them easily - so the issues were, (1) why did they add that requirement so late in the process, (2) why did they not accept two other proofs of his status and (3) why was the requirement not seen ANYWHERE in the regs that control this program in the first place? In other words, this requirement appears to have been arbitrary, capricious and interposed for the purpose of delay." Nope.
Anyone with an IQ over room temperature who has EVER served in any branch of the US military knows that to get any benefits of any kind from anything even remotely connected to military service, you MUST have "discharge papers." World War II guys spoke of "mustering out" papers. My MIL had discharge papers, not a DD214. That form was introduced in 1950.
But without that piece of paper, you didn't serve. And ALL veterans know that.
