Ungrateful wretches, AKA adult children

[hilary1617]

As Dodinsky said, "Be there for others, but never leave yourself behind." Seems like you've struck a better balance. I suspect shunning, if any, will be temporary.

Just absolutely delighted that you will get a respite from your biggest annoyance.

It's fun here, but I'm a bit disappointed that Congress decided to go home a week early to stomp for the coming election. I had arranged a private Capital our via our Senator's office on Friday and wanted the kids to see the Senate and House in action; they instead saw empty, albeit beautiful rooms. One of my dad's friends is 1st circuit appeals judge and so we got to visit his office - but they are also not in session, still very interesting as he is a fun person I've known my whole life who has an amazing art collection. Yesterday was the zoo - the big excitement was that a humongous black rat snake crossed our path and the kids suspected it was an escapee from the reptile house. Also made it to the Crime and Punishment museum. Today's plans are for Art and Natural History though of course can get complicated/unplanned as MIL is arriving at 11 and leaving at 4 via Amtrak. If she is not up for walking, we'll take a double decker bus tour instead. Am intrigued by the possibility of a Turkish Festival tonight, though I'm mainly learning that my shoes are not as practical as once thought so may or may not actually make it there.

Have a great day!

 

[brooklyngirl]

I need @hilary1617 to be my tour guide next time I'm traveling!

 

[southernlady]

I need @hilary1617 to be my tour guide next time I'm traveling!

ME TOO!!!

 

[Elizabeth N.]

I try to sit on my hands and NOT comment on threads involving parenting, cuz I'm not a parent. But I want to cheer you on for keeping a journal anywhere, including here. It will help you so much to be able to refer back to it later and go "WTF? Like HELL am I going to put up with more of that shit!" It's far too easy to forget how bad it really was "last time" when the "next time" presents itself.

I was all set to start cheering, too, when the thought of SD and SIL splitting came up. That would give you big street cred since you have experience and connections to the appropriate legal people and stuff.

It makes my heart bleed to see these jerks taking advantage of you and living out of your pocket. Even if you can afford it, it's still wrong and manipulative and.....just such bullshit. I wish you'd find your assertiveness, so evident in other parts of your life, to take charge of your space and everything else you've worked so hard to acquire.

That sounds horribly materialistic, but I don't know how to make it sound better. They are grownups (well, limited in your son's case, I get that) and should know better. You are grownups and don't need to take this shit from anyone including offspring. Nobody is bettering humanity in this scenario, and you guys are getting bled, if not dry, certainly into financial or relational anemia.

 

[DianaCox]

SD and SIL are considering splitting up for the wrong reasons. They are in a very stressful situation at the moment - homeless, actually - of their own doing (or lack of doing/planning/follow-through). They need to get a grip and BOTH work together to figure out how to solve their homelessness problem FIRST.

But allowing SIL to move out and leave his wife and child here would NOT solve that problem - it would relieve HIM of the responsibility for providing a roof over their heads, while knowing full well he could stay with his mommy indefinitely, while continuing his preferred lifestyle of student/gamer. He knew that if SD moves to his mommy's house with him, the shit would hit the fan pretty quickly - SD will NOT hold back in telling his mommy to fuck off with her babytalking, criticizing SD and undermining SD's discipline of the kid, which will lead to mommy kicking them out AGAIN (SD was kicked out of their house years ago due to her unacceptable behavior when she was sponging off them while SIL was still in the military and stationed overseas) and THEN where would they be?

And SD is motivated to split up with him and stay here, because he's been treating her like shit, undermining her attempts to (FINALLY!) discipline the toddler, and she wouldn't have to deal with him staying up all night playing video games and then demanding that she keep the kid quiet and entertained while he sleeps in - and the resentment that created. Oh, and sucking off of Charles' and my financial tit. So: NO, just no.

I ripped into both of my kids yesterday too, in the interests of fairness and because they were irritating me too. Daughter claims she told Charles she would be gone for the weekend - this was not shared with me - and that she did X, Y and Z helpful things around the house this week that I was also unaware were done by her. Told her it was not enough, and that she was responsible for communicating with me too. And explained that she really really had to be out of here by the end of October. Son was berated for getting drunk and "forgetting" to do his agreed chores, and was suitably apologetic rather than defensive. He agreed to get the basement room cleared up (it's got a lot of crap being stored in it right now) and cleaned up enough so SD and toddler can move in after he moves to the pool house, after daughter moves into her own place. I don't want to get into a "yours vs. mine" battle with Charles, but at this moment, we're on the same page that his daughter (and SIL) is deserving of getting the boot, and that it was the right thing to do - and it really was his final decision.

I actually don't think SD and toddler will be coming back though. I'm guessing she will do anything to avoid being called a slug and a slob again, and rather than taking responsibility for earning those appellations, and rectifying the situation, she will play the victim again, and punish us by cutting us off. I can't say that will make me entirely sad. But I hope that she will find a living situation - with or without SIL - that has her living independently and responsibly for once in her life, and growing the fuck up. Because SIL's complaints about her not pulling her considerable weight in this relationship are well founded, even if his method of dealing with it is completely reprehensible.

 

[DianaCox]

Further updates:

SD came over yesterday with the toddler to pick up her mail. Everything was all cheerful and pleasant. This was the relevant information conveyed:

• Recap:
  • the original "plan" conveyed to us when they moved in with us was that they were going to move in with his mother (whom SD can't stand) and her husband in Dublin as a temporary solution, because his mother and stepfather are planning to get divorced
  • but that was OK, because by the time the divorcing parents put the house on the market (2-3 months), SD and SIL would be out anyway
  • their second plan was to separate and have SIL live with his mother and leave SD and toddler behind with us - both to give them some space from each other, and (perhaps more) to avoid SD having to live with her MIL
  • we nixed that plan, and they left in a huff last Saturday
• When they got up to Dublin on Saturday, they discovered (I doubt this, but this is what I was told) that SIL's mother had already been asked to leave by her STBX, who nevertheless welcomed the little family to stay
• SIL now has a 35 mile each way commute in miserable traffic to get to school and to get home - so he's spending 18 hours a day away from home - leaving early and staying late to avoid traffic
  • thus, they are pretty much getting the break from each other that they were aiming for anyway, without inconveniencing us
  • SD doesn't have to deal with her MIL after all
  • and SD is getting to do most of the disciplining of the toddler without contradiction and interference by the Fun Dad - he's only sleeping at the house and is coming home after she goes to bed and is out before she wakes up
• SD never bothered to mention to us that she had been applying to an online web design certification program through one of the local junior colleges, and that she had applied for Pell grants - they have apparently come through, and she is caught up on the class she enrolled in and doing well (after only two weeks of course - who knows how long that will last,as she rarely if ever sticks with anything that requires effort on her part, but I can be hopeful).
• SD said that she has had a change of attitude, and is being proactive about keeping the house clean up there, and feels more motivated than she did a week ago
• They are therefore trying to find a place to live both through the alleged VA program (and supposedly SIL took my advice and called our US congress-critter to help, since it seems there may be some fraud in the program - the people administering the grants seem to keep creating new requirements for them to fulfill to keep them from getting to the point where they GET the housing assistance for vets that this program is supposed to disperse), and through their own funds (from student loans and grants) - so perhaps now they will make a genuine effort to find someplace to live on their own.

So - it seems all is cool on that front - for now.

In the meantime, my daughter is actively looking for a place to live with her roommate (a guy who rented a room with her and her ex throughout most of their marriage, so they already know they are compatible roomies - he's a very nice guy), and they are even considering allowing my son to move in with them, although he can't pay what they can. And HE has been interviewing for "real" jobs, and may get one he really wants, at a nice restaurant nearby. And both of them have been making somewhat of an effort to be more respectful and helpful around the house.

Things are looking up!

(And I have two very long seething unsent emails sitting in my drafts folder, one to SD and SIL, and one to the other grandparents, which I can pull out for repurposing the next time they fuck with us, or - on a more hopeful note - to just pull out in the future to see how far they've come.)

 

[hilary1617]

Nice to read such positive news, Diana.

 

[DianaCox]

And I cannot say enough how much I appreciate the input I got from you all - when you're in the middle of a situation like this, it's hard to keep perspective and rationality. Your ideas and support were invaluable.

 

[JackieOnLine]

really good news; and mostly so glad SD and toddler are out of your house!! I think you are wise to write and then not send some e-mails....

 

[DianaCox]

I write LOTS of emails I don't send - they are a form of journaling for me. I was looking at some old ones this last week as I contemplated my feelings about the situation, and I found this one, written in 2007, shortly after SD ran off and got married behind our backs - and HIS parents lied to our faces about the fact that they were conspiring with them to help them do so, which we already suspected:

Charles’ younger daughter lied to our faces when she was visiting in January, and got married to her Marine. In San Jose. Without inviting us to the wedding (which goes along with doing it behind our backs, I suppose). With her mother’s instigation to do so (seems she didn’t want [SD] around after all, after instigating her to not do what we wanted her to do, like go to school – I guess she “won”). Charles is devastated, but moving on to angry. Doesn’t matter much right now – [SD] isn’t speaking to us. Whatever. I expect her to show up someday, babe in arms, divorce in progress.

 

[Elizabeth N.]

The assertions about the VA thing make my hinky-meter go up. There *are* significant requirements to be fulfilled, and they can seem weird if you are not versed in military-speak, but they are pretty clear-cut.

 

[DianaCox]

I agree, to some extent - but SIL has been very diligent (lately - he clearly didn't START soon enough) about filling out forms and such, and they keep moving the goalposts every time he complies with their latest request, and then say that it will be ANOTHER two weeks before he'll find out what their decision is - when he and his family CLEARLY meet the requirements for the program. I'm suspicious that this organization - two layered, no less - is merely a form of employment for the people who do the "screening" - and that their goal is to give out as little money as possible so they can keep themselves employed.

SIL brought me in to review this letter to his program contact person:

I spent some time investigating the SSVF program literature to get some clarification on my family's eligibility. According to the NOFA and the SSVF Program Guide, we are eligible for services based on the documents I have provided.

The Program Guide section V.B.3.a states "Grantees are required to serve very low-income Veteran families occupying permanent housing as defined in 38 CFR 62.2 and 38 CFR 62.11(a)."

According to 24 CRF 5.609 we make less than 30% of the local median income for a 3 person family (Bay Area Census Data and HUD Estimated Median Family Incomes for Fiscal Year 2014). This defines us as Low Income based on the income documents I provided.

We are a veteran family as defined in 38 CFR 62.2 and based on my Honorable Discharge Certificate and Form DD214.

We occupy permanent housing as defined in 38 CFR 62.2 and based on the the lease agreement that is attached.

In addition to qualifying for services, our situation is described in the Program Guide's example of a priority case (V.B.3 paragraph 3).

While literal homelessness is described as a qualifier for eligibility it is not required. The intention of the program is to help families like mine in order to prevent homelessness.

"Section 604 of the Veterans’ Mental Health and Other Care Improvements Act of 2008, Public Law 110-387, authorized VA to develop the SSVF Program. Supportive services grants will be awarded to selected private non-profit organizations and consumer cooperatives that will assist very low-income Veteran families residing in or transitioning to permanent housing. Grantees will provide a range of supportive services to eligible Veteran families that are designed to promote housing stability. The statutory authority for the SSVF Program is found at 38 U.S.C. 2044. The implementing regulations are found at 38 CFR Part 62."​

Our current living situation is not sustainable and we will literally homeless in less than 90 days if not for assistance from this program.

I was a little uneasy about this, and said to him (regarding the statement about the lease agreement):

I think this is a little ambiguous, and implies your current living situation involves a lease. I think you should say: “Until September 1, 2014, we occupied permanent housing as identified …. attached. Due to death of the owner of the house, our lease was terminated. We are currently staying temporarily with various family members in inadequate and unsustainable circumstances.”

And he responded:

Yes talking about our current housing situation made me uneasy also because I have to imply that nobody in our family can house us permanently and I think that might be difficult to prove given the combined income and assets of [SD]'s and my parents. so I might expect someone to question "If the family has the assets, why won't they house us?" While I think that is an unfair question, and outside the scope of the SSVF program, the lower level project coordinators and managers have been consistently un-knowledgeable and unprofessional.

I then asked how it was any of the VA's business whether or not a vet with a family of his own had parents who could conceivably house them, and he said:

...the screener kept telling me that since I have family to take us in, it reduced our chances of being accepted into he program. He told me to go to the VA homeless shelter in Oakland where he knows somebody, and have them verify my homelessness in a letter. When I explained how that seemed deceptive and made me uncomfortable, he said I could spend the night in my car or in a shelter, then I would be technically homeless and the letter would be technically true.

So that's why I took a look at the program literature and the regulations. They got 2 million dollars this year for this SSVF program, plus donations and volunteer work. They are obligated by the federal government to help us, and to do it fast because we make less than 30% of the median income, and have a child. That is literally the example the Program Guide uses for a priority case.

My response:

“None of our parents, for various reasons, can or are willing to house us for more than a couple of weeks, nor support us. These are NOT resources that are at our disposal. They are only willing to take us in temporarily, and we already have to leave the first place we moved to. Our belongings are in storage. We are trying to AVOID the trauma of being homeless.”

I would point out again that there is no requirement to sleep in a shelter or on the street to qualify as being homeless – having to rely on family to keep yourselves and your toddler off the street is still being homeless, as you have no home of your own. I would be calm and resolute and honorable about it, including repeating your concern that the deceptive tactics they are suggesting seem dishonorable and unethical, and that you are not comfortable doing that.

And his response:

For this program there is no requirement for being homeless. But the McKinney act defines homelessness in a number of ways, but our situation does not meet any of those definitions. This act is used as a basis for the VA's definitions of homelessness. That's why we are described as a "low income family occupying permanent housing." "Occupying permanent housing" has a special definition including having left a permanent resident in the last 90 days without another one to move into.

So he is right that we are not homeless and that if I was technically homeless as defined in McKinney, I would be accepted into the program. But, it is not a requirement, and in fact we have equal if not greater priority than a single veteran who is living in a shelter, which is what they want me to pretend.

This group has been unprofessional from the beginning and I intend to file a complaint with various elected officials and the VA once the process is finished. They get funding from the state and federal government, and donations. If you go to the Abode website, most of it is dedicated to selling the organization to potential donors not connecting veterans to services. I had to get the program manager's cell phone number from a friend of my mom's. That's the only reason I was even able to make contact. If I am having this much trouble, with my internet and cell phone and car and connected family, how does some veteran with crippling PTSD get services off the street?

My response:

Good for you – you know how *

I* feel about making my self-advocacy for insurance issues as broadly applicable as possible, so I think it is very admirable to take steps to bring this deplorable situation to the attention of the authorities, AFTER you get your family properly situated. It is exactly what I keep saying – if I’m having this much trouble, with my advantages (and don’t mention THAT word until after you get a place to live!), how the hell could someone with fewer resources manage? In fact, you didn’t even KNOW about the program in the proper time frame! That’s not right, and someone appears to be profiting (e.g., keeping a job they are not doing properly) at the expense of those who are supposed to be the beneficiaries of the program.

So this was the letter he actually sent:

I checked into the requirements for the SSVF program and I don't think we need to be technically homeless to qualify for services. I think we are defined as a "Very Low-Income Veteran Family Occupying Permanent Housing" (

Definitions). I attached the lease agreement for our most recent residence. It shows that the lease ended on August 31, 2014 and we have not had permanent residence since that date. The lease was not renewed because the owner passed away and the family trust decided to sell the property.

Also the financial aid from my school does not count towards my income since I am older than 23 years and have a dependent child (24 CFR 5.609). This puts us at less than 30% of the median income for the local area and we have a small child. This makes us an example of a priority case as defined in the Program Guide.

Our current living situation is temporary and untenable for 2 adults and a small child. Next week, we will have to move to my mother's house in Dublin, CA. Not only is this a financial burden (gas and time lost commuting), my mother and step-father are getting divorced and they are selling the house in less than 60 days. At that point we will literally be homeless.

If we do not get assistance from this program will be literally homeless in less than 90 days. If we do not get assistance quickly our chance of becoming homeless sometime in the future is significantly increased. It is the intention of the SSVF program to prevent this and according to the Program Guide, I think we have given sufficient evidence of eligibility.

Several days after he sent that email, they responded with this - SIL's comments on it follow:

I just spoke to my supervisor on this is issue . Since you told me that you are currently staying with your in laws the VA does not consider this homeless , to help you though we can go this route

I would just need a document from your in-laws stating just the basics

(I.E -[SIL] and [SD] and [toddler are staying with us on a temporary basis because they had to movie out of their sold property Sept 1 , 2014 . with name signature and contact information

My supervisor said this would sufficient .

I need a DD214 member copy 4 for showing your discharge and eligibility OR a statement of service which is available from the Veterans Affairs building for free.. 1301 Clay Street Oakland ,CA

(I know you presented to me DD214 member copy 1 this shows no discharge and your DD256 which shows your military reserve obligation honorable discharge . but these docs are not sufficient)

So the note from you I think is reasonable to show the temporary status of our arrangement. But they wont accept my Honorable Discharge Certificate as proof of my honorable discharge. I attached the scan of the original document. Are documents like these regularly disregarded? I feel like there is no better evidence for an Honorable Discharge the the original document signed by a Lt. General.

He is saying he needs the long form DD214 that includes the discharge type ( I dont' have that copy) or a letter of service from the VA, which I have to go to Oakland to get.

The definition for an eligible veteran is "Veteran: A person who served in the active military, naval, or air service, and who was discharged or released there from under conditions other than dishonorable." The Honorable discharge alone should prove this. There are no other requirements for being a veteran.

He then had to take an entire morning, drive 40+ miles to Oakland and go to the VA office to get a printout that the program people could have obtained from the VA themselves, to get a copy of his longform DD214 - HOW WOULD A MENTALLY ILL, ACTUALLY HOMELESS VET have been able to do that???

I wrote a letter for them, even though it pissed me off to have to say we were kicking our family out to an official, when we were NOT obligated to house them in the first damned place - this was on September 18th:

To whom it may concern:

I am [SD]'s stepmother. [SIL], [SD] and their daughter are staying with her father Charles Cox and me on a temporary basis, because they had to vacate their rental property on September 1 , 2014, due to their lease expiring and the owners of that property preparing it to be sold.

Their living situation with us is, by necessity, extremely temporary. We have asked them to be out of our house within the next week.

If you have any questions, please contact me at the telephone number/email address below.

They STILL have not heard whether they have been accepted into the program, much less been offered help according to the terms of the program to get housing.

I think there may well be fraud going on between these two organizations:
http://operationdignity.org/
http://www.abodeservices.org/

 

[DianaCox]

So, @Elizabeth N. or anyone else with military experience - does this look legit? Do you see why I'm suspicious? If a sane, relatively sober, functional vet cannot cut through this paperwork in over two months, and even has to use family connections to get in CONTACT with someone in the program in the first place, my own hinky meter goes off.

 

[southernlady]

So, @Elizabeth N. or anyone else with military experience - does this look legit? Do you see why I'm suspicious? If a sane, relatively sober, functional vet cannot cut through this paperwork in over two months, and even has to use family connections to get in CONTACT with someone in the program in the first place, my own hinky meter goes off.

These might help:
http://www.va.gov/HOMELESS/SSVF.asp
http://www.va.gov/vso/VSO-Directory_2013-2014.pdf

Thing is, I did read enough in there to see that it can take 60-90 days to get thru the system.

 

[Elizabeth N.]

So, @Elizabeth N. or anyone else with military experience - does this look legit? Do you see why I'm suspicious? If a sane, relatively sober, functional vet cannot cut through this paperwork in over two months, and even has to use family connections to get in CONTACT with someone in the program in the first place, my own hinky meter goes off.

The VA stuff is always in bureaucratese, of course. That makes it tough even for vets on occasion. But there are advocates to be had if you look for them. Every military installation bigger than a postage stamp has some sort of veteran affairs office.

there are a lot of programs and it can be a bit complicated to figure out what the vet qualifies for. Involving the congresscritter might or might not be helpful. It will be seen on the ground as a seriously asshole maneuver, and chances are it's not the way to go anyway.

He is not entitled to all that terribly much in aid if he just did one or two enlistments unless he was deployed. If he was, then there could be some options. But who knows what the funding, backlog etc is like.

Bottom line is that I am very suspicious from the outset, but not ready to call bullshit entirely. He could have encountered local assholes that are complicating matters.