Low carb versus moderate carb

[DSRIGGS]

I've never been able to get a clear answer to this, so I'm going to try again:

What if you were a trooper until you were 10% below goal and then started eating carbs? Wouldn't you put on weight THEN? If so, what's the difference between eating some carbs while you're losing or eating them after you've lost? Wouldn't it balance out the same in the end?

Mark, I agree with you. I think the DS community puts too much emphasis on carbs and that it is a myth that carbs are the weight loss enemy. Eating things like fruits and veggies is a good thing and not a negative. Fibrous foods are good for bowel motility and helps to keep things moving. Naturally one can't eat a bunch of cake, doughnuts, candy, etc and think that isn't going to have an impact. Those things in addition to being junk carbs are also very heavy in calories. I know some think this isn't true, but it is what the science tells us, at the end of the day it is calories absorbed vs calories expended that will control our weight either up or down. We do absorb carbs more readily than other things so that is why too many carbs can be detrimental to our efforts...that being said, I think the 50 a day is an unrealistic expectation for 99% of the population to follow for very wrong. I have said before if we are honest with ourselves many of us were eating well over 500 carbs a day pre op, so eating between 100 and 200 a day is a huge reduction in carb intake. At the end of the day I will never be swayed from my opinion that a balanced diet in moderation is key to long term success and health.

 

[Marquis Mark]

Mark, I agree with you. I think the DS community puts too much emphasis on carbs and that it is a myth that carbs are the weight loss enemy. Eating things like fruits and veggies is a good thing and not a negative. Fibrous foods are good for bowel motility and helps to keep things moving. Naturally one can't eat a bunch of cake, doughnuts, candy, etc and think that isn't going to have an impact. Those things in addition to being junk carbs are also very heavy in calories. I know some think this isn't true, but it is what the science tells us, at the end of the day it is calories absorbed vs calories expended that will control our weight either up or down. We do absorb carbs more readily than other things so that is why too many carbs can be detrimental to our efforts...that being said, I think the 50 a day is an unrealistic expectation for 99% of the population to follow for very wrong. I have said before if we are honest with ourselves many of us were eating well over 500 carbs a day pre op, so eating between 100 and 200 a day is a huge reduction in carb intake. At the end of the day I will never be swayed from my opinion that a balanced diet in moderation is key to long term success and health.

Thanks, Scott. Just to clarify I'm really just questioning why we imply there is some sort of magic 2-year window in which, if you don't avoid carbs, you will forever blow an opportunity. I find that stressful to hear. I think the more useful thing to hear is simply that we get no "discount" on carbs like on protein or fat. They're full retail price. You eat them, you own them. Therefore, although the DS is the most powerful WL tool available, you will most likely always need to moderate your carb intake if you hope to get to goal. Not just in the first two years, but always.

I'm also amazed that people promote and seem to be able to stick to less than 50 carbs a day. Can't help but wonder: if you can do that, why did you have the DS in the first place?!

 

[southernlady]

I'm also amazed that people promote and seem to be able to stick to less than 50 carbs a day. Can't help but wonder: if you can do that, why did you have the DS in the first place?!

Because we (generic) for the most part suffer consequences if we eat too many carbs other than weight gain.

It takes some time to create a habit so maybe think of the two year window as the best way to create the habit of avoiding most carbs.

 

[Duckman]

@Kate and I had a Srikanth-themed get-together this weekend. One point Kate made, that I really didn't appreciate fully previously, is that all of us are at the vanguard of science here.

I had surgery in the 80s for skin cancer that has become standard practice now, but was experimental then. In a way, even though Aetna paid for it, DS is still experimental and all of the guidance is somewhat woo based.

excuse me I need to go take my 200 mg woo for the day

I fart all day if I even see someone else eat a carb, so it's been easy to drop them. I'm only a few months into this journey, though

 

[hilary1617]

I believe in the magic weight loss window based on my personal experience. There is an opportunity cost, in my opinion, to not maximizing weight loss during the first two years post-op, when weight melts away. Reality is when the body adapts (sleeve stretches, villi lengthen), it's far more of a struggle to lose.

That, in concert with (a) the lack of physical benefit for carb loading on the front end, (b) the reward of creating healthy habits are the reasons I would advise DS'ers in the first two years to focus on getting the protein and supplements first and keep the carbs to reasonably limited amount selected from nutritious choices.

Not judging, as I ate my share of frosted ginger cookies then and have curves today that could have been avoided had I behaved better then myself (but no regrets and not seeking to justify it either!).

All the best.

 

[KathrynK]

Can’t give you permission to freely consume carbs and expect the best possible outcome. You might be lucky, but you might not be. Ask your surgeon about DS failures and what he thinks contributed to failure.

This pattern helps me enjoy some carbs, by being selective and controlling quantity. I havent counted carbs but I try to follow these rules. Almost 13 years out and still at goal.

1. “No harm” carbs– salad stuff and other vegetables, nuts, berries, almond/peanut butter, dairy
2. Reduced portion carbs—small “dose” of rice or baked potato. Half a banana or apple. Ice cream (only high quality) when I want it. I gave up pasta because I can’t stop at a small dose. Really healthy whole wheat bread.
3. Quality carbs— restaurant desserts, a great birthday cake, really great chocolate, my sister’s cinnamon rolls (only as rare treats and only if they are exceptional)
4. Worthless carbs – cakes from box mixes, ordinary cookies, white bread, French fries, supermarket candy, and any form of liquid sugar, such as soda, juice or sports drinks. ( I aim for “never” for these, but I am no saint, and got caught in a candy habit recently and had to work at getting back.)

This season, from Halloween to Christmas, will be challenging and, like unaltered people, I usually have to spend January getting back on track.

 

[southernlady]

This season, from Halloween to Christmas, will be challenging and, like unaltered people, I usually have to spend January getting back on track.

Thankfully THIS year, Halloween is not my downfall. Between 2013 and 2016, our neighborhood was Halloween central requiring 5 bags (Costco/Sams size) to have enough for all the kids. This year we are parked in an RV Park that does not allow anyone under 18. So no need to buy candy.

 

[Marquis Mark]

Because we (generic) for the most part suffer consequences if we eat too many carbs other than weight gain.

Aside from gas, what? And why?

 

[southernlady]

Aside from gas, what? And why?

If you can eat them, go ahead. Other than our own experiences, there is no scientific evidence that I am aware of. I always figured it 18-24 months or until you hit goal, which in my case was 7 months.

 

[Marquis Mark]

If you can eat them, go ahead. Other than our own experiences, there is no scientific evidence that I am aware of. I always figured it 18-24 months or until you hit goal, which in my case was 7 months.

What have been people's experiences, other than gas and weight regain/lack of loss (both of which I concur with)?

 

[DSRIGGS]

Thanks, Scott. Just to clarify I'm really just questioning why we imply there is some sort of magic 2-year window in which, if you don't avoid carbs, you will forever blow an opportunity. I find that stressful to hear. I think the more useful thing to hear is simply that we get no "discount" on carbs like on protein or fat. They're full retail price. You eat them, you own them. Therefore, although the DS is the most powerful WL tool available, you will most likely always need to moderate your carb intake if you hope to get to goal. Not just in the first two years, but always.

I'm also amazed that people promote and seem to be able to stick to less than 50 carbs a day. Can't help but wonder: if you can do that, why did you have the DS in the first place?!

Yep I hear you Mark. There is a lady in Dr K's group who lost a significant amount of weight 16 years post op. The 2 year magic window comes from the belief by most Bariatric Docs who do the DS, that at 2 years your villi and intestines have regrown/adjusted as much as they are going to. After that point it still boils down to CICO or CACO for us. I think it is relatively "easy" to be able to gain or lose 10-20 pounds if a person wants to, after the believed honey moon period.

It is still my belief that moderation and balance is necessary to keep ones self where they want to be. I am not advocating people downing buckets of ice cream, nor would I advocate eating a ton of fat and butter either. I just don't think 50 carbs or less a day is doable long term nor do I think it is healthy. Eating fibrous vegetables is good for our bowel motility so I believe that eating plenty of "good carbs" is important to do. Eating a reasonable amount of fat is as well.

 

[CaitlynR]

I agree. Besides not allowing for ketosis (which I am not convinced is needed for most people), I can’t imagine that a few crackers or a piece of bread is harmful. We absorb all/most carbs, and that’s it. To me it is something to monitor and make sure I’m not adding excessive calories in carb form. I do think sugar can trigger sugar cravings and am seeing how this affects me, as I’ve also found that having a very small amount of something I crave can get rid of the craving.

 

[BigGeekGirl]

Logically this makes sense - but the bodies and minds of morbidly obese do not work logical.

Part of it was psychological for me. I had failed at every diet I ever tried. Even successful diets yielding 100lb losses left me above 300lbs. (I was 415lbs or higher at my highest).

Surgery gave me the hope to lose it. I needed the concept of the window as a 'this is a limited way of eating'. I could not maintain less than 30 grams of carbs a day forever. If I could I wouldn't have needed DS. The window provided a goal and motivation for me to stick to it when I had cheated at everything else.

But had some of those Strict DSers seen my diet for the first 18 months they still would have flipped. I ate 2-3 servings of broccoli or cauliflower and a couple of servings of greens daily. I'd eat squash and peppers. My 30 grams of carbs were almost strictly veggies and I counted net carbs.

Even now 12+ years out I can eat virtually unlimited whole food carbs - greens, broccoli , peppers, onions, carrots, squash and even potatoes and beans! And I still lose weight.

It's processed carbs that get me- bread, crackers and wheat pasta. These are my trigger foods I have to limit.

 

[BigGeekGirl]

What have been people's experiences, other than gas and weight regain/lack of loss (both of which I concur with)?

At about 10 years post op I got lax. I was eating 4,000-5,000 calories a day but when I shifted to eating more carbs - gold fish crackers (2-3 servings), pasta at dinner (2 servings) and cereal (2servings) at night.... I gained 30lbs in 2 years. I still ate lots of meat , cheese, veggies, butter and nuts and seeds. I just also ate carbs.

I realize I cannot be happy with one serving of goldfish crackers I want the whole bag. Same with any bread type product.

I am in the process of losing that gained weight but it's not as easy as it was in the first two years because

1: my capacity to eat is much greater and thus I am also not always planning food like I did at the beginning. So grabbing crackers becomes subconscious and I don't get the immediate stomach upset from eating donuts. The first year I'd eat a donut and have to run to the toilet. To get my protein I had planned meals to hit targets. Not any more.

2: the psychological drive to lose the initial weight is gone. It really is a honeymoon period. I'm 'normal' now so losing the 30 regain I'd like to lose isn't the challenge the initial loss was. I'm not accountable to weighing with a doctor or charting my goals like the first two years. The lack of drive means it's easy to fall off the wagon and grab the crackers.

3: my guess is I absorb way more than I did. So at year one I could eat a pound of bacon and absorb only two slices worth. Now I eat a pound of bacon and I absorb 6 slices worth. A donut would come out of me as liquid (presuming not absorbed) but now? I can eat three with only minor gas issues. I used to get oil slicking all the time and rarely do now... Presumably because I'm absorbing more of that fat?

All this makes losing now harder than losing 6 months after surgery. And if you aren't seeing the results then you just don't have the same motivation to continue. It goes back to 'I didn't succeed at dieting'.

I went from 415+ lbs to 148lbs. Even now at 175lbs I'm 'normal' but if I'm not careful in another few years I'll be up in the mid 200's, etc. I like 'normal' too much. I miss the early days of easy loss where I'd go super low carb for 3 weeks and drop 15lbs.

I want to add I think for me to keep eating bacon by the pound and 16oz ribeye steaks and sticks of butter may have also contributed to my regain not just the goldfish crackers. The fact is my body is absorbing more. So only 20% of my 20 strips of bacon , stick of butter, 6 slices of Bologna, fried up chicken thighs were absorbed at year 3. I'd greatly poop out oil slicks. Not any more.

I can eat more now and am absorbing more. So if I absorb 50% now? Half a pound of bacon, half a stick of butter, 3 slices of Bologna , two of my four chicken thighs... Guess what? I may gain from it. Same with the protein count. I know many disagree and say DSers can eat all the fat and protein but I think some don't realize the capacity of a former 400lbs food addict to eat all day long.