The role of K1 and K2

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And I use Superior Source because it dissolves sublingually.
 
I used to get Superior Source at the Natural Grocery in Medford.

isn't sublingual better in general? something about not having to "go through your liver" ...was that it?
 
I'm up to taking 2,000 K1 and 500 K2....lab results still show <normal results. Does anyone one take this at higher amounts? My MD does not want to give me shots. Afraid I'll throw blood clots.
 
Somewhere on this site someone talked about getting their Vit K at a higher dosage from England. If that person sees this I'd love more information on this. I got my Protime and PTT done. The Protime was fine, but the PTT was off. I need to elevate my vit K, and I am currently taking 6 pills. My goal is to increase my vit K intake and decrease my pill intake with a higher dosage pill. I have to say, just when I thought I had my PCP trained to understand my situation, I got a call from his nurse telling me that he wanted me to see a nutritionist to help elevate my vit K. With all the Vit K I'm taking via pill form, does he really think I'll increase my Vit K levels eating a little more spinach? Yeeeesh.
 
Somewhere on this site someone talked about getting their Vit K at a higher dosage from England. If that person sees this I'd love more information on this. I got my Protime and PTT done. The Protime was fine, but the PTT was off. I need to elevate my vit K, and I am currently taking 6 pills. My goal is to increase my vit K intake and decrease my pill intake with a higher dosage pill. I have to say, just when I thought I had my PCP trained to understand my situation, I got a call from his nurse telling me that he wanted me to see a nutritionist to help elevate my vit K. With all the Vit K I'm taking via pill form, does he really think I'll increase my Vit K levels eating a little more spinach? Yeeeesh.
I wasn't the one to make that comment, but you can get a high dose K2 from "Relentless Improvement". In this product, each capsule contains 15,000 mcg (18,750% of RDA). Yes, 18,000+% is not a typo. The K2 in the osteoporosis studies was K2 menatetrenone, which this is. It is a water soluble formulation. It $32 for 90 capsules (from their website), but the full dose is in one capsule per day. There are products with much lower doses and/or other forms of K2 (inexpensive CIS-form, not as good as menatetrenone
 


Just talking about K2, I currently take two of these (#1):
1. BEST Vitamin K2 ★ 600 mcg ★ 90 Vegie Caps - Advanced Formula - All Natural MK7 (Natto) and MK4 Menatetrenone) Plus Calcium 100 mg - Vitamin K - MK-7 + MK-4
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018FARO4G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

vit. K2 as menatetrenone MK4 500 mcg
Vit. K2 (as natto) MK7 100 mcg
Amazon: $17.08/90 caps

This is what I'm thinking about:

2. Vitamin K2 MK-4 15mg Plus MK-7 60mcg 90 Capsules
https://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-60mc...213&sr=1-2&keywords=relentless+improvement+k2

vit. K2 as menatetrenone MK4 15 mgs
Vit. K2 minoquinone MK7 60 mcg
Amazon $34.95/90 caps


The vast difference being the amount of MK4 being offered in #2. At this amount, I'd only take one pill/day. If I took this (as opposed to my current pill form #1, I'd be reducing my MK7 from 200 mcg/day to 60mcg/day. After a Google search, there seems to be a split as to which component (MK7 or MK4) is of best use. Has anyone done a deeper search? What say you?
 
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I have read that menatetrenone and menaquinolone-4 are both MK-4. Menaquinone-4 is the same as menatetrenone. MK-4 has been shown to decrease the incidence of fractures up to 87% in doses of 45 mg daily in Japan. (Sato Y et al, in the journal Bone 2005.) if you want to dig down, there's a meta analysis of these studies, http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/full article/410550

You're right to look at the doses mcg and mg. Most K2 supplements have very low doses, some so low that it seems they would be useless. There appears to be no toxicity at the highest doses of MK-4, but there are a lot of unknowns.

The one I take has 15 mg of mk-4 (15000 mcg). In the ones you found, Product one has 600 mcg--a very-low dose. The second product has the same 15 mg of mk4 as the one I take and 60 mcg of MK-7, which I don't take but perhaps I should. The bone study I read of mk-7 used 180 mcg (Knapen H, Osteoporosis International, 2013); your product numbered 2 has an 90 mcg dose. Knapen says mk7 has a longer half life than MK-4.

Take into account our malabsorption of vitamin K, I would think more is better. Then again, I don't think they know if the ADEK vitamins compete with each other for absorption, does anyone?

Bottom line, maybe 2 capsules of product 2 would mostly cover the bases, with 30 mg of mk-4 and 180 mcg of mk-7. Just guessing, as we all are about the fine points of supplements, when the nutrition research is so minimal.

I think we should be sure to tell newbies about the importance of k-2 as one of the recommended vitamins. Somehow I missed K2 until recently, but I've been taking k1 all along, although probably in too low of a dose.

I'm sure there is a lot more to know, so I hope others pitch in on this.
 
Thank you Kathryn. I was a little worried about jumping up to 30 mg / day of Vit K2 (MK4). Then again, my Vit K level has never reached the normal range. In fact I have no idea what my level is because the result always comes back <normal. I also wanted to let the newbies know that after 15 years, I've finally started working on this vit. level. Getting started on the nutrition supplement path can be a little overwhelming when you first start. I didn't start looking at Vit K until I started to have bone issues. So to the newbies, please be aware that getting your Vit K level is important in the long run.

Kathryn, do you take one or two caps /day? How is your Vit K level running?

I do hope others chime in. :)
 
Thank you Kathryn. I was a little worried about jumping up to 30 mg / day of Vit K2 (MK4). Then again, my Vit K level has never reached the normal range. In fact I have no idea what my level is because the result always comes back <normal. I also wanted to let the newbies know that after 15 years, I've finally started working on this vit. level. Getting started on the nutrition supplement path can be a little overwhelming when you first start. I didn't start looking at Vit K until I started to have bone issues. So to the newbies, please be aware that getting your Vit K level is important in the long run.

Kathryn, do you take one or two caps /day? How is your Vit K level running?

I do hope others chime in. :)
Make sure they are properly handling the tube for the K. It's one that HAS to be light protected ASAP...not after they finish drawing everything but need to stop and light protect it right then.

Taking K2 is a crap shot cause there is no blood test for it. And while it helps your bones, you could still be taking it and doing everything right and still get osteoporosis.
 
My k1 has always been ok, but I've never seen them immediately protect it from the light. I get labs next month, so thank you Southern Lady for that information. Since DS malabsorption means we are ADEK deprived, and there is apparently no toxicity to very high doses, I am taking k2 aggressively (one 15 mg capsule daily). I will switch to your product 2 when this bottle runs out and probably two capsules until then. I agree it's a crap shoot, but we are in uncharted territory. One of the high-dose K2 studies found an 85% reduction in fractures (it wasn't a great study) but that exceeds the osteoporosis pharmaceuticals.
 
K1 can easily be mishandled. Also check your PT/INR as well.

K2 doesn't yet have a lab test.


What about Osteocalcin as a K2 test? According to Dr. K's blog:

"Vitamin K2 controls osteocalcin, which is a calcium regulating protein. Osteocalcin binds to the mineral portion of the bone..."
 
My K1 levels are always well out of range but my PTT and INR are tested before surgery and although the are at the top end, they always come back in range.

The K2 stuff I really have no idea if it is doing anything. I kind of feel the same way about the Magnesium bisglycinate that I take. The stuff is nearly $20 a bottle of 100 and I take 5 a day. I am debating dropping it because I really don't know what it is doing for me.
 

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