End of my 5th week Update, Some Crazy Stuff.......

[robs477]

My last update was right at about week 3.5 or so. Right after that last update, actually the very next day, the shit hit the fan so to speak for me metabolically, or so I thought.

So, In keeping with several threads of late regarding the “Inevitable 3 week stall”, I thought I’d convey my observations and experiences.

Yup, I felt like I literally hit a brick wall! The first thing that happened is I lost ALL my energy and was getting really tired all the time. Then came the aversion to ANY kind of food, but in particular, anything with protein. The thought of eating or drinking my protein shakes made me nauseous. But, I forced the protein drinks down at least and then was still drinking all my water. At the same time ALL weight loss completely stopped. I freakin freaked out for about a day or two and actually thought that my body was “re-setting” itself back to its old ways, back to my old broken down metabolism.

After about the 3rd day, I remembered reading about the stall (should have remembered that right away), and that I had saved Diana’s article that explains exactly what it is and why it happens. I re-read it again and everything made complete sense and then some.

My stall lasted about 3-5 days. I could actually feel myself coming out of it because I had energy again, (due to freshly replenished Glycogen restored in my muscles), and I could think about eating again and I was craving food. Sure enough, my metabolism was back on and the next day I was back losing weight again.

What’s cool is I was able to feel every single change and correlate it exactly as it happened (after my initial panic)…lol due to this information I had. The reason I got tired, (my theory), during this conversion process it must have produced some kind of DO NOT EAT right now, NOTHING sounds good trigger, a chemical, hormone etc, so that my body would not expend that needed energy on digesting food real-time. In essence, it had to go in to something of a shutdown mode to keep the energy for this conversion to happen?? Never heard or read that before, but I think that’s what happened.

As of this morning, I have lost 48 lbs total, 16 Pre-Op diet, 32, Post-Op in 34 days
Or, .94 lbs per day Post-Op.

I feel very thankful again to all the Vets and For Diana’s article in particular and the fact that I had already had the info and the tools to cope with this and was prepared, sort of...lol.

And….Oh yeah, BTW……I will NEVER, EVER, NEVER, tell someone again to stay off the GD Scale!!!!! It’s just NOT possible to do. It’s like passing a really bad wreck.... the harder you try not to look, the more you have too! So, I have acquiesced and admitted fully that it has complete control over me and that I am just its faithful subject….lol…..Sorry Elizabeth!

 

[DianaCox]

"The reason I got tired, (my theory), during this conversion, is that my body was using ALL its available energy to convert the Glucagon from my fat stores to the Glycogen for replenishing and re-storing in my muscles ..."

Um, no, you've misstated this.

Glucagon is a peptide hormone that is involved in regulation of glycogen, but it is not something that is converted INTO glycogen:

Glucagon is a peptide hormone, produced by alpha cells of the pancreas, that raises the concentration of glucose in the bloodstream. Its effect is opposite that of insulin, which lowers the glucose concentration.[1] The pancreas releases glucagon when the concentration of glucose in the bloodstream falls too low. Glucagon causes the liver to convert stored glycogen into glucose, which is released into the bloodstream. High blood glucose levels stimulate the release of insulin. Insulin allows glucose to be taken up and used by insulin-dependent tissues. Thus, glucagon and insulin are part of a feedback system that keeps blood glucose levels at a stable level.

So, glucagon causes stored glycogen to be broken down to glucose. It does not have anything to do with converting FAT from the body into glucose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis) in the blood, which is then converted to glycogen under the influence of insulin (when blood glucose gets high - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogenesis).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...8IMdApuPWx2Ay8WqQ&sig2=5IBAP_FC1gXGVB2zoLlVaw

Carbon sources for post-exercise glycogen
repletion in the absence of food
The observation that humans and other animal
species can replenish at least part of their glycogen
stores after exercise while fasting raises the question
of the nature of the endogenous carbon sources
recruited for this process. This depends to a large
extent on the type of exercise from which one is
recovering (Fournier et al., 2002). For instance, in
response to prolonged exercise of moderate intensity
resulting in only a marginal accumulation of lactate
or glycolytic intermediates, these carbon sources
play a role of marginal importance in the resynthesis
of muscle glycogen in humans and rats, with most of
the accumulated lactate being oxidised (Brooks and
Gaesser, 1980; Gaesser and Brooks, 1984; Favier et
al., 1987). There is strong evidence that, under these
conditions, glycogen resynthesis occurs primarily at
the expense of amino acids (Favier et al., 1987). In
response to a sprint, on the other hand, a large
proportion of muscle glycogen stores is converted
into lactate and, to a lesser extent, to glycolytic
intermediates. In humans and across all animal
species studied to date, there is strong evidence that
lactate, either directly or indirectly via its conversion
to glucose, is a major carbon source for glycogen
repletion under these conditions (reviewed in
Fournier et al., 2002), although a large proportion of
it is oxidised (Hatta et al., 1988). We and others
have also shown that the glycolytic intermediates
can also contribute to glycogen repletion in humans
and rats, but to a much lower extent (Astrand et al.,
1986; Nikolovski et al, 1996; Pascoe and Gladden,
1996). What about other carbon sources such as the
amino acids derived from the pool of free amino
acids or protein breakdown and the glycerol released
from the hydrolysis of triglycerides? Although there
is evidence that late into recovery these carbon
sources might play some role in the replenishment of
muscle glycogen (Fournier et al., 2002), their
relative contributions remain to be established.

Good reasons to eat lots of protein when you're trying to lose weight!

 

[robs477]

"The reason I got tired, (my theory), during this conversion, is that my body was using ALL its available energy to convert the Glucagon from my fat stores to the Glycogen for replenishing and re-storing in my muscles ..."

Um, no, you've misstated this.

Glucagon is a peptide hormone that is involved in regulation of glycogen, but it is not something that is converted INTO glycogen:


So, glucagon causes stored glycogen to be broken down to glucose. It does not have anything to do with converting FAT from the body into glucose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis) in the blood, which is then converted to glycogen under the influence of insulin (when blood glucose gets high - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogenesis).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=23&ved=0CCYQFjACOBQ&url=http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Lambert_Braeu/publication/259989887_Post-Exercise_Muscle_Glycogen_Repletion_in_the_Extreme_Effect_of_Food_Absence_and_Active_Recovery/links/0912f506ccd8d57a42000000.pdf&ei=dx8HVY-sCZO2oQT5zoGoCQ&usg=AFQjCNGlpwQpKRg9m8IMdApuPWx2Ay8WqQ&sig2=5IBAP_FC1gXGVB2zoLlVaw




Good reasons to eat lots of protein when you're trying to lose weight!

Oh goodness, thxs for the clarification, that's quite different. But, the tiredness is still from whatever conversion/replenishment that was happening. Plus, I forgot to mention that my pee was real orange like I wasn't drinking enough water. I guess that was because my body was using all that water to re-replenish those glycogen stores.

 

[southernlady]

And….Oh yeah, BTW……I will NEVER, EVER, NEVER, tell someone again to stay off the GD Scale!!!!! It’s just NOT possible to do. It’s like passing a really bad wreck.... the harder you try not to look, the more you have too! So, I have acquiesced and admitted fully that it has complete control over me and that I am just its faithful subject….lol…..Sorry Elizabeth!

It's the people who think they can't lose if they do not weigh and whine about being stuck during stalls that "staying off the scale" is aimed at.

I KNEW I would stair step and the ONLY weigh in I counted the first year were the monthly ones. BUT I will freely admit, I was on the fucking scale every single day during the first 6 months...it's like an addiction. And during the previous 20 years, the ONLY scale I got on was at the doctor's office...I didn't even own a scale.

Now, in maintenance, it's pretty easy to only weigh once a week.

But some people let a mechanical object rule how they are gonna feel about themselves that day. No device should have that power.

 

[JackieOnLine]

I suggest people stay off the scale and go by how their pants fit but some people want to weigh or can't stop themselves.

but your pants are the best way to measure progress.

 

[Jen-2]

Hey Rob! Glad your stall was short! Congrats on your weight loss. You're doing amazing!! How is it being back at work? Are you getting all your fluids in? I'm still struggling w that. Are you on solid foods yet? Just wondering how your diet is going and how you're getting your protein in. Have you started your vitamins yet? I'm still on just a multivitamin. It's still a little slow going for me on the recovery but I'm getting there. Hope you're still feeling great! Let me know how you're doing.

 

[robs477]

Hey Rob! Glad your stall was short! Congrats on your weight loss. You're doing amazing!! How is it being back at work? Are you getting all your fluids in? I'm still struggling w that. Are you on solid foods yet? Just wondering how your diet is going and how you're getting your protein in. Have you started your vitamins yet? I'm still on just a multivitamin. It's still a little slow going for me on the recovery but I'm getting there. Hope you're still feeling great! Let me know how you're doing.

Hi Jen! I guess I only touched on some of the crazy things happening. Your questions reminded me of some more changes and weirdness that’s happened…lol.

Since that stall….all bets are off on what I can, or more importantly, what I WANT to eat. My taste buds have NOT been my “buds” (I am still NOT wanting meat, which is not good) and my desires for food are VERY minimal and all over the map. When I do eat meat or protein, I still get tired within a minute or two afterwards. I find myself just wanting vegetables, soup etc. I had ½ of an ear of sweet corn yesterday with butter and salt on it and thought I’d died and gone straight to heaven…lol, so, my “buds” aren’t totally dead, they are just not wanting meat or protein, which of course leaves me shackled to the GD protein drinks WHICH I HATE! I’ve probably spent $200 on different brands, different mixes, adding strawberries etc and I still am not happy with any of them, but…WTF? If that’s my biggest complaint, then I still feel very fortunate, and….I know my buds will change…HOPEFULLY and I will desire to eat meat again.

Liquids: I couldn’t flippin stand to drink all those liquids, and again, tried every flavoring etc, BUT…fortunately, that’s got a lot better. I now actually only want just the pure water, ice cold and am getting in my required amount. It takes constant measuring and recording on my daily spreadsheet to keep up with it, but, I’m doing it. AND…after just going through this stall conversion thing, where your body needs all that water to store Glycogen (and a host of other things), I was actually able to feel the need and the experience the water utilization. So, for me that was cool since I’m a show me kind of person.

On the Vitamins: I had everything ordered from one of the “place to go to” vitamin companies and they couldn’t fill my order even after FOUR weeks of waiting and said they wouldn’t be able to ship until the end of March which would have been SEVEN weeks total. So, I cancelled the order just this week and got everything I needed from Amazon within TWO days. I’m going to try to slowly infuse those in a few at a time starting next week. In the meantime, I’ve been using a powdered multi-vitamin that I mix in with my God awful shakes called All-In-One, so, I think I’m Ok.

I went back to work last week and did ok. It was right in the middle of that crash/stall, so it made it worse and I have just been tired and needing more sleep. I’m still tired, not ALL that abundant energy I had as before that stall, but, that’s actually more normal than having that hyper (like I just drank a whole pot of coffee) feeling I had were I couldn’t even sleep!

Im so happy you're doing better also! Just a little more time and we'll be back to "Better than Normal"!!…lol

 

[hilary1617]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the update! You are on your way!!!!

This may seem way out there and I am not a medical professional by any means, but someone who seems to have had a similar metabolic past and has similar reactions to high protein meals, something which is known to trigger the release of glucagon, I wonder if you may potentially have an challenge with glucagon levels or the ratio of glucagon to insulin.

In layman's terms, glucagon works to raise blood sugar levels and address/prevent hypoglycemia. It is the opposite of insulin, which works to lower blood sugar levels to address/prevent hyperglycemia.

High glucagon levels are associated with

- Fatigue
- Increased hunger and thirst
- Weakness
- Nausea
- Diarrhea
- Depression / mood swings​

I don't suspect you have this as it is really rare, but for fullness of record, the following are known symptoms of the form of cancer I have, glucagonoma, where a pancreatic cell goes crazy and generates way off-the-charts-high levels of glucagon.

- Diarrhea
- Flushing (face turning bright red) for no apparent reason
- Unexplained blood clots (DVT or even PE)
- Unsual rashes
- Insulin resistance / pre diabetes​

 

[star0210]

I think everything you're saying sounds perfectly normal!

 

[k9ophile]

I suggest people stay off the scale and go by how their pants fit but some people want to weigh or can't stop themselves.

but your pants are the best way to measure progress.

Yep! Someone thought I had lost weight; I said "I don't think so." She countered with stating my pants looked big. So I weighed myself & sure enough I had lost weight. I went from a size 16 to a size 12. AND seven years of being post-op, I still have the mentality of keeping my size 16s for when I regain.

 

[robs477]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the update! You are on your way!!!!

This may seem way out there and I am not a medical professional by any means, but someone who seems to have had a similar metabolic past and has similar reactions to high protein meals, something which is known to trigger the release of glucagon, I wonder if you may potentially have an challenge with glucagon levels or the ratio of glucagon to insulin.

In layman's terms, glucagon works to raise blood sugar levels and address/prevent hypoglycemia. It is the opposite of insulin, which works to lower blood sugar levels to address/prevent hyperglycemia.

High glucagon levels are associated with

- Fatigue
- Increased hunger and thirst
- Weakness
- Nausea
- Diarrhea
- Depression / mood swings​

I don't suspect you have this as it is really rare, but for fullness of record, the following are known symptoms of the form of cancer I have, glucagonoma, where a pancreatic cell goes crazy and generates way off-the-charts-high levels of glucagon.

- Diarrhea
- Flushing (face turning bright red) for no apparent reason
- Unexplained blood clots (DVT or even PE)
- Unsual rashes
- Insulin resistance / pre diabetes​

Thxs Hilary for your suggestions and thoughts. I am looking forward to getting my first labs done just to look at all those levels, thyroid etc. Been a lot of changes in a short time.

 

[hilary1617]

Rob, I'm definitely curious about your labs. In any case, I hope you find a protein that works better for you and just know, it's going to be really fun for me to follow your weight loss journey from here on out. I love success stories and you are one!!!!

 

[Charris]

I was like @southernlady I weigh every day in the beginning most times twice a day. Before surgery I only got on the scale at doctors. Now that I'm really not loosing it's nothing for me to stay off scales if I don't I would go crazy !

 

[Will2014]

Hey Rob! Glad your stall was short! Congrats on your weight loss. You're doing amazing!! How is it being back at work? Are you getting all your fluids in? I'm still struggling w that. Are you on solid foods yet? Just wondering how your diet is going and how you're getting your protein in. Have you started your vitamins yet? I'm still on just a multivitamin. It's still a little slow going for me on the recovery but I'm getting there. Hope you're still feeling great! Let me know how you're doing.

Jen , how are you doing exactly? Where are you at post op? I struggled SEVERELY with food and drink, with my fluid intake so poor it was down right dangerous. I needed 2 IV's due to dehydration...I just was too sick to drink! Then someone here posted to me about trying lemonade-the fresh squeezed kind in supermarkets, and it may well have saved my life! I'm literally not kidding. The acid flavor somehow was very refreshing to me, and it was a Godsend. Please talk openly about your recovery here, without fear of being put down or ridiculed. We've all had many experiences with our procedures and recovery, and by sharing our adventures we can help each other find a path that works. As for protein drinks, I found Bolthouse brand in Walmart and I LOVE IT! It's delicious, though can be pricey.-look for sales. Please don't be shy....anything I can do to help I'm happy to oblige.

 

[Jen-2]

Jen , how are you doing exactly? Where are you at post op? I struggled SEVERELY with food and drink, with my fluid intake so poor it was down right dangerous. I needed 2 IV's due to dehydration...I just was too sick to drink! Then someone here posted to me about trying lemonade-the fresh squeezed kind in supermarkets, and it may well have saved my life! I'm literally not kidding. The acid flavor somehow was very refreshing to me, and it was a Godsend. Please talk openly about your recovery here, without fear of being put down or ridiculed. We've all had many experiences with our procedures and recovery, and by sharing our adventures we can help each other find a path that works. As for protein drinks, I found Bolthouse brand in Walmart and I LOVE IT! It's delicious, though can be pricey.-look for sales. Please don't be shy....anything I can do to help I'm happy to oblige.

Hi Will! Thanks for the advice. I'm getting between 40-50oz of liquids a day. Always trying to get to that 64 oz magic number. I keep switching up plain water, all different mio drops, crystal light, etc. sometimes low carb cocoa. Protein I'm getting is mostly from from food these days bc I have such an aversion to shakes right now. Today I'm at over 40 grams of protein wo a shake.