Copper and Zinc

[danadear]

I have been trying to learn as much about these two since deficient in both. I have found a lot of very conflicting info on the two. I have decided to start with 100 mg of chelated zinc and 13.5 of chelated copper? Does this sound like a good starting point since I've never supplemented before other than what is in a multivite? Also should I possibly consider upping it more than that to help heal from a upcoming surgery? Thanks

Labs
Zinc - plasma/serum 50 LOW ug/dl (56 - 134)
Copper - serum 67 LOW ug/dl (72 -166)

 

[Marquis Mark]

It's anybody's guess exactly how much you need. I'm in the same boat with cooper and I still haven't found the right level. It will likely take a lot of trial and error to get the balance right. Your numbers aren't too terrible right now. Just keep trying different combinations and getting retested about once a month.

Definitely separate your copper from your zinc as they are antagonists. May try one on one day and the other the next.

I'm honing in on Copper gluconate as the best kind, but not 100% sure yet. I checked with Swanson's. Their cheap stuff (300 tabs for about $5) is chelated copper gluconate.

As a starting point I think your doses are a little high, especially the zinc because excessive zinc inhibits copper. Maybe start with 25 zinc and 4 copper and up it per your labs.

 

[KathrynK]

It would help if you had a professional to guide you. Your levels are barely low, so no reason to get too excited. Minerals are complicated because they are competitive: zinc, copper and iron. This is what I do, which is in no way a recommendation for everyone. I made some adjustments based on my most recent labs and the elimination of iron. I don't take iron anymore because the hematologist says it is clear I am not absorbing it. I take 50 mg zinc picolinate (the form that is easier for your body to absorb) daily and 2 mg copper on Saturday every other week. My copper levels have always been ok, but zinc has been up and down. They compete with one another for the same absorption pathway and that is my solution. Some people take them in the same days, in various doses depending on their labs.
More is not necessarily better, because there are toxicities if you get too much. YOur proposed doses are pretty high given your minimal defieicency. The guidelines say 1 mg copper should be given for each 8–15 mg of elemental zinc. (The 50 mg of zinc picolinate = 17 mg of elemental zinc.)

 

[danadear]

I agree that I need a professional and I am currently trying to find someone. Thus far I have not figured out who that person will be. I need guidance I know this. I'm thinking maybe a dietician who specializes in bariatrics. I'm not sure if a dietician can order the labs I need though. Any suggestions on what kind of professional to seek out? Thanks for your response I was kinda taking a stab in the dark since I have nothing previously to go on. Plus I did not heal well from a surgery this past March and I have another one coming up because of it so I wanted to get my zinc up in a hurry for the wound healing aspect of it. I did read 15:1 ratio for zinc and copper. I am curious though, does your hematologist help you keep track of your copper levels too? Or does he focus on only your iron?

 

[danadear]

It's anybody's guess exactly how much you need. I'm in the same boat with cooper and I still haven't found the right level. It will likely take a lot of trial and error to get the balance right. Your numbers aren't too terrible right now. Just keep trying different combinations and getting retested about once a month.

Definitely separate your copper from your zinc as they are antagonists. May try one on one day and the other the next.

I'm honing in on Copper gluconate as the best kind, but not 100% sure yet. I checked with Swanson's. Their cheap stuff (300 tabs for about $5) is chelated copper gluconate.

As a starting point I think your doses are a little high, especially the zinc because excessive zinc inhibits copper. Maybe start with 25 zinc and 4 copper and up it per your labs.

Thanks for your response! Your every other day suggestion is interesting. Maybe I should start at lower doses. My motivation to start so high was for healing purposes.

 

[KathrynK]

I agree that I need a professional and I am currently trying to find someone. Thus far I have not figured out who that person will be. I need guidance I know this. I'm thinking maybe a dietician who specializes in bariatrics. I'm not sure if a dietician can order the labs I need though. Any suggestions on what kind of professional to seek out? Thanks for your response I was kinda taking a stab in the dark since I have nothing previously to go on. Plus I did not heal well from a surgery this past March and I have another one coming up because of it so I wanted to get my zinc up in a hurry for the wound healing aspect of it. I did read 15:1 ratio for zinc and copper. I am curious though, does your hematologist help you keep track of your copper levels too? Or does he focus on only your iron?

My bariatric surgeon and nutritionist in his office order the blood work and interpret it every year. They order it a few weeks before my annual visit. It was $300 worth of blood work this year. The doses of each supplement tend to change over time, some up and some down. This testing is an annual responsibility for everyone after DS. Who is your surgeon? If he/she isn't available to monitor you, you should find a nearby surgeon or primary care provider. You are probably right that nutritionists can't order this extensive battery of tests. Search this site for a sample letter Diana Cox wrote for primary care doctors to educate them about how to follow you. My hematologist is only interested in iron, but tests a few other things (even if they have already been tested elsewhere) just to keep them in her records. DS patients often have to explain the surgery and its effects to various doctors. Who did your original zinc and copper tests?

 

[Spiky Bugger]

ANNUAL testing?

I'd probably die if I waited that long.

For example:
I had low, but within range, Vit D in November. In Feb, I got an injection and was told to d/c the oral Vit D so we could test and see how well the injection worked. In April, I was nearer the bottom of the range. By May, my Vit D was lower tban the low end of the range.

I have learned that my iron goes too low in six to nine months. If I waited for a year, I'd be too weak to walk to the chair in tbe infusion center.

 

[KathrynK]

ANNUAL testing?

I'd probably die if I waited that long.

For example:
I had low, but within range, Vit D in November. In Feb, I got an injection and was told to d/c the oral Vit D so we could test and see how well the injection worked. In April, I was nearer the bottom of the range. By May, my Vit D was lower tban the low end of the range.

I have learned that my iron goes too low in six to nine months. If I waited for a year, I'd be too weak to walk to the chair in tbe infusion center.

Oh, I thought annual was standard with the surgeon for the battery of tests. I saw them every 6 months for the first few years and now annually. Between the annual visits with the surgeon for all the vitamin and mineral tests, my internist usually checks my iron and D, which have been the only ones that have been more variable for me. Copper and zinc are tested only once a year at the surgeons office. I wonder if my copper is more stable because I only cook in copper pans? The level hasn't budged off normal, even though I take it infrequently. I guess we are all different, although I'm seeing a pattern of iron deficiency requiring infusions in the veterans.

 

[chevtow]

I have my PCP order the tests and I figure it out from there. Don't really need a surgeon to order tests. Doctors don't tell you anything wrong until something is really wrong. They don't usually watch trends. If you're in the normal range that's good enough for them, never mind you might be dropping like a stone. I just can't rely on a "professional" when it's so important

 

[danadear]

My bariatric surgeon and nutritionist in his office order the blood work and interpret it every year. They order it a few weeks before my annual visit. It was $300 worth of blood work this year. The doses of each supplement tend to change over time, some up and some down. This testing is an annual responsibility for everyone after DS. Who is your surgeon? If he/she isn't available to monitor you, you should find a nearby surgeon or primary care provider. You are probably right that nutritionists can't order this extensive battery of tests. Search this site for a sample letter Diana Cox wrote for primary care doctors to educate them about how to follow you. My hematologist is only interested in iron, but tests a few other things (even if they have already been tested elsewhere) just to keep them in her records. DS patients often have to explain the surgery and its effects to various doctors. Who did your original zinc and copper tests?

Dr. Husted did mine and he is no longer practicing. I had to travel to Kentucky back in 09'. He told me to follow up with PCP and have my iron and ADEK checked every year. I know now that wasn't nearly enough. My PCP ordered my labs this year based on my request. I used Dr. Greenbaum's yearly lab sheet. My PCP doesn't normally order these test and is unfamiliar with how to treat me. I told him I would look for someone to help but I'm not sure on how to find that person. Short of picking up the phone and calling all the PCP's around me I don't know how to go about finding someone. Google search hasn't been much help. I want to find someone who knows more than me about our unique systems. I hate trying to figure everything on my own ;-/ I have give him much info about my DS surgery however he still refers to it as a gastric bypass. I'm just wasting my breath trying to educate him although I don't really want to replace him with another PCP as he is a good general doc but I would if I can find the right one.

 

[southernlady]

I want to find someone who knows more than me about our unique systems. I hate trying to figure everything on my own ;-/ I have give him much info about my DS surgery however he still refers to it as a gastric bypass. I'm just wasting my breath trying to educate him although I don't really want to replace him with another PCP as he is a good general doc but I would if I can find the right one.

My PCP does order ours every six months as requested by my husband and I. BTW, mine has our list as a speciality item in their EPIC software and calls it gastric bypass. He said yes he knew it wasn't but it was easier for him to remember. He expects us to adjust our own vitamins. He does help with the prescription stuff and DOES remember we malabsorb. I'm living with it cause he's working with us even if he calls it wrong.

 

[KathrynK]

Dr. Husted did mine and he is no longer practicing. I had to travel to Kentucky back in 09'. He told me to follow up with PCP and have my iron and ADEK checked every year. I know now that wasn't nearly enough. My PCP ordered my labs this year based on my request. I used Dr. Greenbaum's yearly lab sheet. My PCP doesn't normally order these test and is unfamiliar with how to treat me. I told him I would look for someone to help but I'm not sure on how to find that person. Short of picking up the phone and calling all the PCP's around me I don't know how to go about finding someone. Google search hasn't been much help. I want to find someone who knows more than me about our unique systems. I hate trying to figure everything on my own ;-/ I have give him much info about my DS surgery however he still refers to it as a gastric bypass. I'm just wasting my breath trying to educate him although I don't really want to replace him with another PCP as he is a good general doc but I would if I can find the right one.

I found this journal article helpful about differences in monitoring after RNY and DS. Maybe it would help him. The doses aren't what I take, but it is a start on what, how and why to test. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apt.12872/full