Another "adult" child issue

[star0210]

After hubby and I got into a big argument about the whole situation last night, we've come up with a plan for at the least the immediate short term.
The argument came about because we were having a conversation about her student loan and the fact that she's going to be responsible for repaying it since the deal was Dad was only paying it back if she graduated. She copped an attitude with me and said I KNOW what the deal is. She said, I guess when I get a job I'll just have to start paying on it. So I suggested to her that she needed to make a list of all the things she was going to have to pay for so she would understand why she can't settle for anything less than a FULL time job and so she can grasp the reality of the situation. Hubby chimed in and said well I don't think we need to get into all of that right now. Lets wait until after her appointment next week and see if we can start to figure out what you want to do, what you like to do..as for all the other stuff, we can cross that bridge when we get to it.
I shut up at that point but I was fuming. Later the volcano building inside of me overflowed and I lost it (not in front of her...we actually went for a walk)
I told him of my frustrations with the whole situation and that I thought he was focused on the completely wrong things. That appointment or her figuring out what she likes or wants to do is completely irrelevant to her situation as it is right now. It would be great for her to figure those things out for her future but it doesn't mean jack shit to her situation today. As for crossing the bridge when we come to it...I told him she's already ON the bridge and the bridge is collapsing and she's now put herself into survival mode. I said that attitude is exactly why she's where she is now...because that's how she lives her life...always procrastinating, always avoiding, everything is always I'll deal with it later.
He said he just doesn't have any idea how to deal with this, how to talk to her, etc.
So we talked and hashed some things out and I vented and then we came up with a plan. We were trying to think of some things she could do around our house instead of just sitting around binge watching netflix all day long but neither of us could come up with anything.
So we are going to bring her back down to the house with a very specific and detailed list and she will clean that house top to bottom. The cable and internet will be disabled for the time being so there can be no distractions or excuses as to why she couldn't get it done. She will have until no later than sunday or monday to complete everything because she has to be back at our house tuesday for her appointment.
This will be her first dose of "reality".
Before we bring her back there, we will sit down and have a long talk about everything so that while she's there cleaning with no tv or internet she can think about all the things she needs to think about.

It's a start.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Can she stream videos on her phone? Does she have an iPad with its own phone line for internet access? Just thinking out loud...

Meanwhile, if her own mother, the major contributor to who the kid is today, doesn't "have room for" her... THAT is telling.

AND, Dad is clueless and doing guilt. And your (I get it, because I am that way, too) dependence on a logical, goal-oriented approach does not stand a chance when up against the guilt of 18 years of absentee fatherhood. He NEEDS to help, in whatever way he can...more, maybe, than he needs your approval for this endeavor.

She DOES need to know what she wants in life. Otherwise, what's the point of working at anything? And yes, she DOES need more than 1.5 hours of work per day. And she DOES need to feel like she is "accepted," somewhere. Your description of her made me realize that she sounds like half the staff at some of the Whole Foods markets I have visited. There ARE jobs for people whole have few resources but have chosen to spend them on ventilating their earlobes. (WHY there are jobs for them puzzles me, but there are...lol)

Because I spent a lot of time dealing with what passes for an educational system in this country, I can tell you that almost nothing was expected of her in school. As long as kids turn in pieces of paper with their name on top, they get credit for doing homework. Even if every answer is wrong. Nobody actually NEEDS to learn anything. There was a huge lawsuit in California because they were graduating kids who could not READ their diplomas. NO learning was demanded. And at least half the faculty didn't care. I once wandered in to translate between a kid and school. Kid could not read anything, in any language. (He was from Cuba, but couldn't read Spanish, either.) But nobody would allow for him to be pulled out of any of his classes for reading instruction, because there WERE no reading classes in high school (I volunteered, but no thank you) and he had to stay in the other classes, where he was getting passing grades, in order to graduate. And get a diploma he couldn't read.

Anyway...when it's important to her, she will change. I was older than she was and lived in chaos and debris until
I decided I didn't enjoy that. But no amount of nagging from my mom or my sister made any difference at all.

I think I would give her a time limit and a plan and some non-critical advice...
~I wouldn't tell her that she looks like shit, but that she needs "an interview look." Like, there's nothing at all wrong in painting the rooms of your house in hot pink and OSHA orange and lime, but when it's time to sell the house....you have to make the house look "perfect" for the largest possible percentage of potential buyers. And that means "greige" might be one of your new favorite colors. Same with job searches. She needs to find a "greige" look.
~Understand, maybe by trying it yourselves, what massive bullshit is involved in job searches these days. Even fast food places and department stores want you to go online, and spend HOURS there, for some stupid part-time minimum wage job.
~She may need some Career Plan B help, and stay away from the for-profit "school" that advertise on television.

She doesn't heed to reach full self-actualization on your dime...but she does need a reason to try to grow up. She needs to get a plan together...and almost none of those cooking schools help people find real jobs...to figure out what her Plan B career might be. Until she does, Home Health Care and housekeeping places are hiring people out of prison.





And, @robs477 ...time to go back to Maslow's hierarchy...

Aka...

Robs, even starving people try to reproduce. They can't help it. (Like in real life...the purpose of any organization is to keep the organization alive. Which is why when the polio vaccine was developed, the "March of Dimes" didn't say, "Cool...we're done!" They found something else to "fight.")

And some 19-year-olds are responsible and others are airheads.

 

[robs477]

Spiky, you have a ton of very good thought provoking points as usual and we really are on a similar page but in the same book, not much difference. I'm not un-feeling, actually quite the opposite. BUT there has to be a line in the sand that everyone understands on ALL sides what they will and will not accept, limits, rewards and detriments. Age is no excuse for this behavior and neither is accepting it. I have little use for lazy people, especially at the expense of others, I'm sorry if that sounds insensitive, but that's how I feel. Be lazy all you want on your own dime, not mine.

@star0210....It sounds like a real good plan you guys came up with. Just make her earn some of those things she is being given and she will learn to appreciate it more, that's all I'm saying. You want the cable back...earn it. No money, no problem, you can come clean my house, wash my car, do my grocery shopping. Not really ALL that, but damn, there is always some work to do that you and your husband don't have time to do because your to busy WORKING and paying for her chones!!

 

[star0210]

Can she stream videos on her phone? Does she have an iPad with its own phone line for internet access? Just thinking out loud...

Meanwhile, if her own mother, the major contributor to who the kid is today, doesn't "have room for" her... THAT is telling.

AND, Dad is clueless and doing guilt. And your (I get it, because I am that way, too) dependence on a logical, goal-oriented approach does not stand a chance when up against the guilt of 18 years of absentee fatherhood. He NEEDS to help, in whatever way he can...more, maybe, than he needs your approval for this endeavor.

She DOES need to know what she wants in life. Otherwise, what's the point of working at anything? And yes, she DOES need more than 1.5 hours of work per day. And she DOES need to feel like she is "accepted," somewhere. Your description of her made me realize that she sounds like half the staff at some of the Whole Foods markets I have visited. There ARE jobs for people whole have few resources but have chosen to spend them on ventilating their earlobes. (WHY there are jobs for them puzzles me, but there are...lol)

Because I spent a lot of time dealing with what passes for an educational system in this country, I can tell you that almost nothing was expected of her in school. As long as kids turn in pieces of paper with their name on top, they get credit for doing homework. Even if every answer is wrong. Nobody actually NEEDS to learn anything. There was a huge lawsuit in California because they were graduating kids who could not READ their diplomas. NO learning was demanded. And at least half the faculty didn't care. I once wandered in to translate between a kid and school. Kid could not read anything, in any language. (He was from Cuba, but couldn't read Spanish, either.) But nobody would allow for him to be pulled out of any of his classes for reading instruction, because there WERE no reading classes in high school (I volunteered, but no thank you) and he had to stay in the other classes, where he was getting passing grades, in order to graduate. And get a diploma he couldn't read.

Anyway...when it's important to her, she will change. I was older than she was and lived in chaos and debris until
I decided I didn't enjoy that. But no amount of nagging from my mom or my sister made any difference at all.

I think I would give her a time limit and a plan and some non-critical advice...
~I wouldn't tell her that she looks like shit, but that she needs "an interview look." Like, there's nothing at all wrong in painting the rooms of your house in hot pink and OSHA orange and lime, but when it's time to sell the house....you have to make the house look "perfect" for the largest possible percentage of potential buyers. And that means "greige" might be one of your new favorite colors. Same with job searches. She needs to find a "greige" look.
~Understand, maybe by trying it yourselves, what massive bullshit is involved in job searches these days. Even fast food places and department stores want you to go online, and spend HOURS there, for some stupid part-time minimum wage job.
~She may need some Career Plan B help, and stay away from the for-profit "school" that advertise on television.

She doesn't heed to reach full self-actualization on your dime...but she does need a reason to try to grow up. She needs to get a plan together...and almost none of those cooking schools help people find real jobs...to figure out what her Plan B career might be. Until she does, Home Health Care and housekeeping places are hiring people out of prison.





And, @robs477 ...time to go back to Maslow's hierarchy...

Aka...

Robs, even starving people try to reproduce. They can't help it. (Like in real life...the purpose of any organization is to keep the organization alive. Which is why when the polio vaccine was developed, the "March of Dimes" didn't say, "Cool...we're done!" They found something else to "fight.")

And some 19-year-olds are responsible and others are airheads.

Her phone is the only thing she will have. There is no home phone there so he doesn't want to leave her without communication in case of an emergency. My hope is that with her poor eyesight she won't think it's worth it to spend any significant amount of time on her phone. He will take the cords to the DVD player and the HDMI cord as well so that she can't connect her laptop to the tv to watch movies.

We've decided he will take the day off Friday and bring her down there. He's going to give her until the following Friday to get it all completed.

Yes, she does need to decide what she's going to do with her life, but that's not the immediate issue nor will she figure that out anytime soon. She needs something that will give her some drive and motivation as well and a sense of self worth. We're hoping the counseling will help with that. I lay a lot of those issues squarely at the feet of her mother. She didn't get this way overnight. Why her mother never addressed it I don't know. She, herself, is not very ambitious. She's been working the same dead end job barely making ends meet ever since she moved to Texas 18 yrs ago. But..can't do anything about that. But it does hurt my heart for this girl because her issues should have been addressed years ago.

You've helped me solve my dilemna on how to approach the appearance issue...I like that. An interview look. That's exactly what I will use! Thanks!

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Spiky, you have a ton of very good thought provoking points as usual and we really are on a similar page but in the same book, not much difference. I'm not un-feeling, actually quite the opposite. BUT there has to be a line in the sand that everyone understands on ALL sides what they will and will not accept, limits, rewards and detriments. Age is no excuse for this behavior and neither is accepting it. I have little use for lazy people, especially at the expense of others, I'm sorry if that sounds insensitive, but that's how I feel. Be lazy all you want on your own dime, not mine.

Not insensitive, just...pardon me here...just a little oblivious to what they are dealing with.

This "adult" has apparently NEVER had to take responsibility for anything. Why is she, now that she's 19, supposed to know how to behave and start behaving that way, when she has NEVER had to do that in her life?

Yes, she needs to grow up and take responsibility for herself...but there is no reason she should be expected to ignore her entire lifetime of life experiences, which haven't taught her shit about growing up, and just change into a responsible adult on demand?

The army needs a minimum (because some people get "recycled") of eight weeks to turn a dopey kid into a soldier...and that's with 24/7 supervision and severe consequences, including imprisonment, for fuck ups. And it's only after that they attempt to teach anyone a skill. There is no "leaving her alone at home hoping she's looking for a job" in that formula. Just 1344 hours of COMPLETE supervision, with...maybe...one off-post pass...for three hours and the idiots who used that time to get drunk paid for that choice. (I used my three hours to have a cigarette and a cup of coffee AT THE SAME TIME, something that was impossible anywhere else during basic. Lol)

I'm just saying that her skill set most likely does not include seeking and keeping employment, any more than a nine-year-old's would. She can GET there, but if forced there now, she'll just fail some more. And not from being lazy. From not being able, in a short period of time, to erase 19 years of experiences regarding how life works.

 

[Spiky Bugger]

Oh, wait! WAIT! WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!

I just had a flashback. Someone I once knew from somewhere...
1--added deadbolt locks to the house, and did not give a key to the kid;
2--explained to the resident goldbrick that the people at this address go to work every day...and you are a people;
3--every night, you will make tomorrow's lunch. If you do not, you will be very hungry;
4--every morning, you will, by 7 a.m., be dressed and ready for YOUR job, which is to find a job;
5--we will drop you off at the department of employment every morning, so you can look through any new jobs posted;
6--later, you can go to the library, and use their computers for job searches. If you choose to play on the computers, remember that this routine will be what you do every day until the end of time;
7--in the evening, we will pick you up at the corner of 1st and Main. Be there by 5:00, but expect to wait a few minutes.
8--Lather, rinse, repeat.

I don't remember anyone getting arrested or killed, so this probably worked out in some way!!

 

[JackieOnLine]

There ARE jobs for people whole have few resources but have chosen to spend them on ventilating their earlobes.

and getting tattoos - those are expensive! not sure how much the earlobe hole things are...

 

[hilary1617]

Well, first, I'm sorry that your family is going through this. As disclaimer, I have no adult children. However, I was an entitled brat who had a teen rebellion that few could match, so while my kids are still in elementary school, I fully expect to pay my dues later on down the road. I'd offer the following suggestions:

Short term: Job near house, any job will do. She needs to pay rent, which will be set aside for her benefit so that she may have a down payment and nest egg to:

Longer term: Rent/share an apartment in NOLA while gaining culinary experience working at one of the many fabulous restaurants there.

Longer-still term: Back to culinary school, but *only* if ready, willing and able to learn.

I think as a young, highly-adorned soul, she would likely benefit from the increased socialization opportunities provided by an urban landscape with a large, young, creative community which welcomes diversity in appearance. Small town, big house is probably a bit lonely and fueling depression in addition to the entitlement and lack of ambition.

Plus, she could volunteer to help cook a meal every other week at the American Cancer Society Patrick Taylor Hope Lodge on River Road, my home away from home (I'll be there Sunday night!). A little charity work can really go a long way in building self-esteem and perspective.

Wishing you strength, patience and a cleaning crew!!!!

 

[brooklyngirl]

Well, first, I'm sorry that your family is going through this. As disclaimer, I have no adult children. However, I was an entitled brat who had a teen rebellion that few could match, so while my kids are still in elementary school, I fully expect to pay my dues later on down the road. I'd offer the following suggestions:

Short term: Job near house, any job will do. She needs to pay rent, which will be set aside for her benefit so that she may have a down payment and nest egg to:

Longer term: Rent/share and Apartment in NOLA while gaining culinary experience working at one of the many fabulous restaurants there.

Longer-still term: Back to culinary school, but *only* if ready, willing and able to learn.

I think as a young, highly adorned soul, she would likely benefit from the increased socialization opportunities provided by an urban landscape with a large, young creative community which welcomes diversity in appearance. Small town, big house is probably a bit lonely and fueling depression in addition to the entitlement and lack of ambition. Plus, she could volunteer to help cook a meal every other week at the American Cancer Society Patrick Taylor Hope Lodge on River Road, my home away from home (I'll be there Sunday night!). A little charity work can really go a long way in building self-esteem and perspective.

Wishing you strength, patience and a cleaning crew!!!!

Love this!

 

[Elizabeth N.]

I agree with you, Rob. I'm not suggesting that anyone let her get away with ANY of this. What I'm saying is that it sounds like she was not ready for all these big steps, not by a LONG shot. Her dad and stepmom have an opportunity to do a lot of age- and situation-appropriate parenting, because it sounds like not very much parenting got done (by the mom) to prepare the daughter for all these big next steps.

It's a bummer to have to go back and catch up on stuff that SHOULD have been instilled starting from very young....but this is incredibly common. I'm not giving the kid a free pass at ALL. Just making a call for some empathy on her behalf.

 

[Elizabeth N.]

I like the very detailed list piece and taking away means of procrastinating and distracting. She needs STRUCTURE. She doesn't need to think about "likes" and "wants." She needs help to order her life--that sounds like a significant chunk of what she's missed thus far along the way. You mention the procrastination etc. piece.....This could be a clue to why she's floating along the way she is. She needs that psych evaluation--might benefit from some medication, possible ADD.

 

[hilary1617]

On a tangentially-related note, though by no means am I implying the young lady in question has an addiction issue, I found the below article interesting. The author posits that addiction may be linked as much or more to an environment lacking human connection / bonding than to chemical dependencies.

It underscores the human need for opportunities to interact positively with others; that loneliness and isolation can overwhelm.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html

 

[southernlady]

On a tangentially-related note, though by no means am I implying the young lady in question has an addiction issue, I found the below article interesting. The author posits that addiction may be linked as much or more to an environment lacking human connection / bonding than to chemical dependencies.

It underscores the human need for opportunities to interact positively with others; that loneliness and isolation can overwhelm.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html

The BIGGEST issue there is some people just do not WANT human connection. And that is hard to cure.

 

[JackieOnLine]

Hilary, those are some great posts and thanks for the link. I've heard of the "rat park" before, fascinating stuff.

and the "war on drugs" is doing so much harm, clearly!

 

[robs477]

Well, first, I'm sorry that your family is going through this. As disclaimer, I have no adult children. However, I was an entitled brat who had a teen rebellion that few could match, so while my kids are still in elementary school, I fully expect to pay my dues later on down the road. I'd offer the following suggestions:

Short term: Job near house, any job will do. She needs to pay rent, which will be set aside for her benefit so that she may have a down payment and nest egg to:

Longer term: Rent/share an apartment in NOLA while gaining culinary experience working at one of the many fabulous restaurants there.

Longer-still term: Back to culinary school, but *only* if ready, willing and able to learn.

I think as a young, highly-adorned soul, she would likely benefit from the increased socialization opportunities provided by an urban landscape with a large, young, creative community which welcomes diversity in appearance. Small town, big house is probably a bit lonely and fueling depression in addition to the entitlement and lack of ambition.

Plus, she could volunteer to help cook a meal every other week at the American Cancer Society Patrick Taylor Hope Lodge on River Road, my home away from home (I'll be there Sunday night!). A little charity work can really go a long way in building self-esteem and perspective.

Wishing you strength, patience and a cleaning crew!!!!

@hilary1617...you are SO cute the way you logically and VERY analytically, methodically break every problem down to a pile of atoms and molecules and then re-assemble them in a more concise, correct and logical way that they should be. Maybe its the Engineer in me that loves your advice and wisdom so much, but I love your posts!